Hi,

I've just changed the restored and upgraded front suspension from the GT6 to the Herald Coupe. Next is the stage 3 engine with triple dellorto's when that's in place it's time to get the radiator in with is gonne be a hassle with a 1200 bonnet, but it's been done before.

question one:

So my question is if the GT6 spring (rotoflex suspension which I'm gonne change to CV shafts) is the right one?
What are the differences between rotoflex and non rotoflex springs? are the longer stronger etc...And what's the difference between a vitesse rotoflex spring and and GT6 one? I'm running the Coupe with twin tanks.

question two:
I'm gonne put theGT6 engine with overdrive and diff in the Herald coupe, will the GT6 prop fit or is there a difference in length between the GT6 and Vitesse?

Thanks,

David

will post some photo's later

You need to use a rotoflex spring with the roto rear as they are different lengths.  You would probably be better using a Vitesse one as it will be stronger than the the GT6 one and more suitable for the extra weight of the Herald, espcially if you want to carry passengers, luggage and stuff.....

The GT6 prop will be too short I'm afraid.  If using standard gearbox you need the matching Vitesse propshaft.  OD (D-type) and non-OD should be easy enough to come by.  OD J-type a little trickier possibly depending on how the gearbox has been built (gearbox can be same length as D type OD one or 1" longer, needing a 1" shorter propshaft).  

See http://www.canleyclassics.com/infodatabase.asp?article=propshafts

Cheers

Nick

As to rotoflex stuff, the most is the same between vit and GT6, however as Nick ponts out the vitesse spring is stronger, so use that maybe with a lowering block if needed. Also the tie rods are a different length, you again need the longer vitesse ones and the correct rear outriggers as the mounting holes are in a different place to non-roto cars. My be possible to redrill and reinforce the outrigger, but I would be inclined to NOT use the existing mountings as it could badly affect the suspension geometry. No idea how, it is probably complicated, but it was done for a reason!
With cv shafts you will be able to use the std shock monuts, that will make life easier

It may be worth getting the engine further back than standard if possible, to improve the handling and give a bit more space for the radiator. Not sure of bulkhead implications with the dellorto's though

Clive

Just a side thought; as the tie-rods are longer on the Vitesse, on both Rotoflex and swing-spring cars, does that mean you're more likely to get tuck-under due to the longer swing angle available from a longer tie-rod?

No the tie rod length does not effect whether or not you get tuck under, only the swing axle length (& angle & spring rate & .....)
Obviously rotoflex cars don't suffer from tuck under.

All,

As there have been several enquiries about rear springs recently, I will append a chart that John Thomason published in the Courier, many years ago.   I have added some data that I acquired, to fill some of the gaps that are still there.  If anyone can fill those, please let me know.

I'll post it as an image, as the register of tables always goes to pot when I post them on MsBs.

Hmm, interesting - seems they are all very similar lengths.  And Mk2 Vitesse is all soft too......

Thanks for posting that John!

Nick

The chart's listing for GT6 has only two divisions:  Mk1 and Mk2/3.  Mk2/3 apparently refers to the rotoflex spring.  The later GT6 Mk3 had the swing-spring suspension and a different rear spring.

I've often wondered what the rate is for Canley's swing spring conversion for Heralds. Put it this way, I have 450lb springs at the front, and the rear feels harder!

I had hard ride at the back with a swinger on the vit6 caused lower ride ht and was  riding on the shocker bump stops so took 2 of the 3 out to get some travel but have now dumped the swinger for a courier unit 1" spacer and pair of spax,  result  ...  no roll   Peter

Some pictures of my rally Herald, it now has GT6 suspension and brakes up front, stiffer springs, polly bushes, stiffer stabi etc...
Also tandem brakes and twin tanks...fitting the doors after the cage was fitted took some drastic methods with sciccor jacks and large pieces of wood...but it worked out fine and the car's shutlines are perfect now...the cage makes a huge difference.
the cars feels more solid and safe.

This weekend the stage 3,  triple dellorto sweet 6 cylinder will go in..together with the overdrive box

These seats are made in Italy and can be made up in any colour or combination leather, corduroy etc...

The fit perfectly and give great support.

The engine is in!
Everything seems to fit, just have to cut out a part of the propshafttunnel because the o/d box is a bit longer. After bolting down the engine and gearbox down to the chassis, it's time to fit all the blanking plugs in the block get an exhaust on and work out some linkage system for the dellorto's....and loads of other things like a radiator heater hoses etc, etc, etc...oops and a put the rear suspension on..ahhhh!

Why does a 6 cyinder in a Herald looks like a race engine....and looks  standard in a Vitesse...

Sweet!

What is that tandem master cyl from?  Looks like you have got it on without chopping the bulkhead too - is that a LHD priveledge?

Nick

It's a Spitfire one, and I had to do some chopping to get it in, no LHD priviledge.
Just cut out as much as was needed, so it looks pretty neat.

I have looked as several options, but the only one that would fit was a Healey tandem cylinder (which is also a conversion), but this involved putting two separate resevoirs onthe bulkhead and the cylinder itself was terribly expensive.

The rear suspension is of the car, time to fit the GT6 one.
The CV Conversion came in and also the longer track rods with brackets (vitesse) and vitesse rear rotoflex spring

So 4 questions:

- What would be a good length to start with for the track rods?

- Are the track-rod brackets on the chassis in the same place as the herald ones, if not not where should I drill new holes?

- Are the brackets for the lower wishbone on a vitesse in the same place as the GT6 ones?
On the GT6 there seems to be 7.3 cm between the bracket and the bridge in which the rear of the diff is bolted.

- I remember reading somewehere that the original setup for the shock absorbers can be used with a CV conversion...is this true or should I use the conversion kit with shorter dampers and chassis brackets

Quoted from davidcourier

- What would be a good length to start with for the track rods?

Should give 1/16'' Toe-in.

Quoted from davidcourier

- Are the track-rod brackets on the chassis in the same place as the herald ones, if not not where should I drill new holes?

I think they are different on a Vitesse, they are are on a GT6. Try to find someone who has an unused outrigger, as some have two sets of holes so as to fit MkI & MkII. Rimmers list the Vit MkII one for the Herald so they have probably commonised it. Canleys & Paddocks list different part numbers.

Bear in mind the outrigger has strengthener tubes inside to stop the box section being crushed.

Quoted from davidcourier

- Are the brackets for the lower wishbone on a vitesse in the same place as the GT6 ones?
On the GT6 there seems to be 7.3 cm between the bracket and the bridge in which the rear of the diff is bolted.

Should be same place relative to diff mounts

Quoted from davidcourier

- I remember reading somewehere that the original setup for the shock absorbers can be used with a CV conversion...is this true or should I use the conversion kit with shorter dampers and chassis brackets

Should fit, the dougnut causes the clearance problem.

^^ What he said.  ^^

I can measure my car (Vit mk2), which has original rear outriggers, if you get stuck .  You'll also have some brake pipe re-routing to do and note that the rotoflex rear has different handbrake cable guides mounted on the tub rather than the chassis. With the CV shafts you may find that the existing arrangement can be connected (fouls on roto couplings when fitted) but I think you'll find the handbrake adjustment varies wildly with suspension position...... I have a Mk2 chassis and mk 1 tub so I know these things  

Nick

Quoted from Nick Jones

^^ What he said.  ^^

I can measure my car (Vit mk2), which has original rear outriggers

Nick

Nick,

That would be great if you can measure it on your car, can you also measure the track rods?

Cheers,

David

See attached pic.  Dimensions should be treated with a degree of caution as for various reasons I can't lift the car just now and it's too low to get under.  Holes appear to be 12mm (1/2") from the edges (top and bottom) of the outrigger.

I can't measure the whole tie rod length with the wheel on, but the distance between the ends of the two tube sections is 67mm. (jam nuts included within that 67mm).  No reason why this will also be correct on yours - toe must be set once assembled and at normal running height.

Note that roto chassis brackets are different - can't see any in your pic......  Note also that there are anti-crush tubes in the outrigger.

Hope this helps

Nick

Quoted from Nick Jones

See attached pic.  Dimensions should be treated with a degree of caution as for various reasons I can't lift the car just now and it's too low to get under.  Holes appear to be 12mm (1/2") from the edges (top and bottom) of the outrigger.

I can't measure the whole tie rod length with the wheel on, but the distance between the ends of the two tube sections is 67mm. (jam nuts included within that 67mm).  No reason why this will also be correct on yours - toe must be set once assembled and at normal running height.

Note that roto chassis brackets are different - can't see any in your pic......  Note also that there are anti-crush tubes in the outrigger.

Hope this helps

Nick

I'll post the pic this time....

Thanks, just fantastic!
What would we do without the internet and people that are willling to post on this forum.

It's minus 15 degrees celsius in my garage....ahhh way to cold to work on the herald.

Quoted from davidcourier

Some pictures of my rally Herald, it now has GT6 suspension and brakes up front, stiffer springs, polly bushes, stiffer stabi etc...
Also tandem brakes and twin tanks...fitting the doors after the cage was fitted took some drastic methods with sciccor jacks and large pieces of wood...but it worked out fine and the car's shutlines are perfect now...the cage makes a huge difference.
the cars feels more solid and safe.

hi David

what's the purpose of "tandem brakes"?

regards Flemming

Dual circuit brake system. If one circuit fails you still have the other half a braking system.  

Quoted from Richard B

Dual circuit brake system. If one circuit fails you still have the other half a braking system.  

If you call back brakes only half a breaking system...... more like a 5th     Still, better than nothing (handbrake  )

Nick

Quoted from Richard B

Dual circuit brake system. If one circuit fails you still have the other half a braking system.  

Sounds interesting. Would you mind providing more details. For instance where did you purchased the tandem brakecylinder in the first place.

regards Flemming

Quoted from Nick Jones

If you call back brakes only half a breaking system...... more like a 5th     Still, better than nothing (handbrake  )

Nick

or you split it; Front Left - Rear Right, Front Right - Rear Left.

Flemming, look for Spitfire or GT6 Tandem systems as fitted for some overseas markets?

Quoted from Richard B

or you split it; Front Left - Rear Right, Front Right - Rear Left.

Flemming, look for Spitfire or GT6 Tandem systems as fitted for some overseas markets?

Not recommended as the suspension geometry means it will REALLY pull to one side.  More modern stuff designed for diagonal split line brakes has different suspension design/settings to reduce the pull (makes steering heavier)

Nick

OR,
you pipe it, Front Right + Front Left
Rear Right + Rear left
then add a brake pressure regulating valve in the primary rear pipe.
Voila!
Adjustable brake balance, without the bother of two master cylinders!

A late GT6 master is a tandem. Part No. 213690
A recess in the bulkhead is required.

John

Just did some work on the coupe.
Airbox was made in alloy and now fits underneath the herald 1200 bonnet.
Radiator is also in including the electric cooling fan.

Next job are the throttle levers and mechanism.

Quoted from JohnD

OR,
you pipe it, Front Right + Front Left
Rear Right + Rear left
then add a brake pressure regulating valve in the primary rear pipe.
Voila!
Adjustable brake balance, without the bother of two master cylinders!

A late GT6 master is a tandem. Part No. 213690
A recess in the bulkhead is required.

John

Sorry John but late UK GT6 does not have a tandem master cylinder.  As far as i know only USA gt6 and late spitfire 1500 were fitted with the tandem cylinder

Look here, "bestquality03" whoever you are.
I really, really dislike peole who offer petifogging criticism of the tiny mistakes of others.

Don't argue with me, argue with Rimmers: http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID008077, who ahev the part, on that part num ber, in stock.
If I have the part no. wrong, mea culpa.
But if I describe a part as 'late GT6' when it's really 'late GT6 in America' or 'in 1500s', WHO BLOODY CARES, as long as the part number is correct?

John

Note their small print: "Tandem brakes factory fitted to special order only."
Never heard of it as an option myself, so I had to look it up - the Gt6+ and Mk3 for some overseas markets used the same setup as late Spitfires, with the PDWA warning system to alert the driver in the event of brake failure or fluid loss. I'm familiar with the late Spitfire system, having just rebuilt one, but never saw it (so far!) on a UK GT6. Photo of the system attached for Flemming; the pdwa adjuster is on the bulkhead, just hidden behind the oil filler cap.

With regards to John D's post - try ordering parts from certain suppliers without specifying EXACTLY the year, model, colour, engine size, petrol consumption and contents of the glove box and you'll find out who bloody cares when a completely wrong order lands through the post, just when you really really need the correct parts...  

Quoted from Paudman

With regards to John D's post - try ordering parts from certain suppliers without specifying EXACTLY the year, model, colour, engine size, petrol consumption and contents of the glove box and you'll find out who bloody cares when a completely wrong order lands through the post, just when you really really need the correct parts...  

Try getting mechanical parts for a  Herald, you have to say Spitfire or they instantly lose interest, or for a Vitesse, you have to say GT6, or even TR6 to have any hope of getting attention from most Triumph specialists.

For example, if you ask Victoria British, (in the USA), an expensive company that I avoid, for a catalog (sic), they will ask you which car you have, and if you say Herald or Vitesse, they refuse to send you a catalog simply saying "we don't cover that model".

ignorance is bliss.

the secret is to own a lot of parts catalogues for different Triumph models so that you can cross-reference part numbers between models.

L

Quoted from lordleonusa

Try getting mechanical parts for a  Herald, you have to say Spitfire or they instantly lose interest, or for a Vitesse, you have to say GT6, or even TR6 to have any hope of getting attention from most Triumph specialists....

I'm not bragging here, but it just happens that I've been the Triumph 10, Herald and Sports 6/Vitesse vehicle consultant for The Vintage Triumph Register here in the US for close to 30 years now. It doesn't happen so much nowadays, but I used to get letters and calls frequently from people having relayed similar experiences, whereupon I would gladly offer any cross-reference that existed so that they could return to their preferred vendor with a "proper" Spitfire (GT6, whatever) part description or number. Alternatively, some of the major vendors would either contact me or tell their customers to contact me for that information!

Quoted from JohnD

Look here, "bestquality03" whoever you are.
I really, really dislike peole who offer petifogging criticism of the tiny mistakes of others.

Don't argue with me, argue with Rimmers: http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID008077, who ahev the part, on that part num ber, in stock.
If I have the part no. wrong, mea culpa.
But if I describe a part as 'late GT6' when it's really 'late GT6 in America' or 'in 1500s', WHO BLOODY CARES, as long as the part number is correct?

John

try getting your facts right and i wouldn't have to offer "petifogging criticism" of your mistakes!!!  none of us are perfect but theres no need to be an a**hole about it

Ive just had to bloomin 'google' 'pettifogging' !


oh well, every days a school day.


Aaaah, chiiilax, put your feet up, have a beer, walk round the garden, kick the cat,shout at the goldfish,  

Quoted from royboy66

Ive just had to bloomin 'google' 'pettifogging' !


oh well, every days a school day.


Aaaah, chiiilax, put your feet up, have a beer, walk round the garden, kick the cat,shout at the goldfish,  

Lol, group hugs required all round!!

Already had the second tank in, also in are now two Pierburg fuelpumps.
To solve the problem of the two pumps "filling"the other tanks etc. I've fitted  a
non- return/one way valve out of a LPG system after each pump.
Pictures isn't the best one, but gives an idea of the layout.

Just need to bolt down the battery carrier somewhere in te boot.

I'm sure it's fine, but are your flexible braided brakelines (on the front end) long enough?  The wheels reach full lock with out placing strain on the pipes do they?  (Just checking, for safety's sake...)

Started on the dash today.
It's a plate of alloy "wrinkle  finish" on plywood. The clocks are out a Jaguar ,I like them because there bigger than the GT6 ones, and the rev counter is electric, there is no tacho output on the 123 ignition.
Airvent is out of a mini. Tried to give it the works look with the labeling in white on red, just as the mini coopers had in the 60's.

sorry neighbours... just had to fire it up... it's sounds fantastic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvGYsoFfX-s

just need to order an exhaust... wondering how much sound will be "lost"by that one silencer...
Those dellorto's make a wonderfull noise, a propshaft and the rear suspension would be nice to...