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Cyril The Herald (1968 13/60 Restoration) Print
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Matt Neale
June 13, 2012, 9:56pm Report to Moderator


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I've just ordered the bottom of the A post from Chic Doig.  I'll let you know how I get on welding it in.  It's the passenger side but a similar problem. I started out with no experience at all. I'm still very green but it is possible.


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Cyril_The_Herald
June 16, 2012, 5:32pm Report to Moderator


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Cyril The Herald

So today, following advice from Oggi, Kelly fitted new points, condenser, rotor arm, distributor cap and coil and... nothing

Still, it was fun experimenting. Here's Kelly unhooking the battery (not sure why, Edd China tells you to on Wheeler Dealers so that's why I suppose).  So what next?  Well, Oggi suggests checking the 'earth strap' - Can anyone help with what one of those might be?

Quoted from Oggi
If your trying to get it running first thing I would suggest as your getting fuel to the plugs (is the fuel new or old?) replace the points and condensor and rotor arm check the condition of the dizzy cap. They are all really cheap parts and the best place to start. If still no spark check the earth strap and replace the coil. I have been through all this recently with mine it's a process of elimination, mine ended up being the coil was on it's way out.



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Mark Hammond
June 16, 2012, 5:46pm Report to Moderator

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Where you based?

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)
Mazda 3 SportNav 165ps SkyActiv New 2014 Model
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Cyril_The_Herald
June 16, 2012, 5:55pm Report to Moderator


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Cyril The Herald

Hi Mark - We're based in South Milford near Selby.
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Oggi
June 16, 2012, 6:06pm Report to Moderator

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When I mentioned the earth strap I mean the one from the engine to chassis, which is located at the front of the engine and goes underneath and is bolted to the chassis via the steering rack mounts.

I take it you set the correct gap on the points when you installed them? 0.16 from memory but could be wrong. If you want to check for spark pull one of the spark plugs reattach the lead to the plug and hold it close to the block. PLEASE NOTE THIS IS HIGH VOLTAGE SO USE WELL INSULATED PLIERS TO HOLD THE PLUG. When you crank it over you should be able to see a spark running across the gap on the spark plug, if not its either the points arent set right, engine earth is poor or you havent got the low voltage lead attached to the distributor and coil.

Hope this helps


1967 1200 Herald
1967 12/50 Herald (restoration has resumed stalled)
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dar
June 16, 2012, 6:14pm Report to Moderator


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if you have a spark stick some petrol down spark plugs and turn it over see what happens


in carmarthenshire. 1971. 1360con, d type od, spit 1300 engine
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Cyril_The_Herald
June 16, 2012, 6:17pm Report to Moderator


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Cyril The Herald

Thanks Oggi for your advice.

Quoted from Oggi
When I mentioned the earth strap I mean the one from the engine to chassis, which is located at the front of the engine and goes underneath and is bolted to the chassis via the steering rack mounts.


This 'earth strap' is gonna take some finding.  When I find it though, it'l be getting replaced!

Quoted from Oggi
I take it you set the correct gap on the points when you installed them? 0.16 from memory but could be wrong. If you want to check for spark pull one of the spark plugs reattach the lead to the plug and hold it close to the block. PLEASE NOTE THIS IS HIGH VOLTAGE SO USE WELL INSULATED PLIERS TO HOLD THE PLUG. When you crank it over you should be able to see a spark running across the gap on the spark plug, if not its either the points arent set right, engine earth is poor or you havent got the low voltage lead attached to the distributor and coil.


Ummm.  We got a lot to learn.  gap on the points!?!?!  Out comes the Haynes Manual!

http://www.OurTriumphHerald.wordpress.com
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Cyril_The_Herald
June 16, 2012, 7:12pm Report to Moderator


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Cyril The Herald

Google is great!

Did some searching and found this site which gave me some useful info on how to set your points gap...

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Ignition_Parts_Web_Ready.pdf

Made the necessary changes to the points (set at 0.015in) and was so confident Cyril would fire up we did a video of it...

http://youtu.be/aY-i37gYqcc

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Oggi
June 16, 2012, 7:29pm Report to Moderator

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Ahhh just had a look at your youtube moment. First thing that hit me is you dont appear to have a vacuum pipe attache from the distributor to the carb. Thats the cone shaped thing on the side of the distributor, there should be a pipe running from there to a similar point on the carb. No vacuum no start!! Secondly it might be worth going right back to basics and setting the static timing. There is a link somewhere on this site for a PDF of the Herald workshop manual. I have a copy but no idea how to upload it so if you drop me your email on a PM I will happily forward a copy.

Are you running neg or pos earth from the battery? this will determine which way round the leads go to the coil.

Earth strap is easy to find, stick your head under the front of the car and you should see a cable (probably very grotty) bolted to the bottom of the engine near the bottom pulley on the engine, follow that and you have both ends of the earth strap.


1967 1200 Herald
1967 12/50 Herald (restoration has resumed stalled)
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mazfg
June 16, 2012, 7:36pm Report to Moderator


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Should still start without the vacuum pipe, this only comes into play when advancing ignition at higher revs which give increased vacuum. Whilst idling, if you ever remove this pipe you'll not notice much difference I dont think.


Current: Triumph Vitesse 6 convertible with O/D 1964

21 Years ago...and my first car! : Triumph Herald 1200 Saloon/ Tristan conversion 1966
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Cyril_The_Herald
June 16, 2012, 8:06pm Report to Moderator


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Cyril The Herald

Quoted from Oggi
...Are you running neg or pos earth from the battery? this will determine which way round the leads go to the coil.

Just dashed outside in the rain to check the battery wiring and this is the outcome...
  • The battery has the earth from the negative point to the bodywork (then a whole load of wires leading from this point).
  • The battery has the positive point leading to 'a gadget' shown below (no idea what this is).
  • The coil has the negative point leading to the low tension lead on the distributor.



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Stu 1986
June 16, 2012, 10:43pm Report to Moderator


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The reason you disconnect the battery is because once the 12V has passed through the coil to the solenoid, the shock it'll give you is enough to vulcanise a gold ring to a man's finger. I watched this happen to my Dad's friend when he was fiddling with my car. I did ask shall I drop the battery....


1971 Triumph Herald 13/60 Convertible
Don't Trust Anything That Doesn't Have An Engine!
Location: Liverpool
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SRF
June 16, 2012, 10:59pm Report to Moderator


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You really need to know if there is a spark at the plugs,  either take a spark plug out, reconnect the cap and lodge it against a metal part of the engine.  If you have a spare spark plug use that and just attach a plug lead.  Get someone to spin the engine with the ignition key whilst you look a the contacts on the plug.  You should see a big juicy spark.  Be careful of touching anything to do with the ignition whilst the engine is turned over.  You can get a nasty jolt from the high tension electric.  If you have a spark, there are only a couple of other reasons the car won't start.  The first is lack of fuel or as has been suggested the fuel is old and has lost its potency.  The next is compression, from your You tube film the engine is rocking as though it has good compression. Another check is to put your finger over the plug hole whilst the spark plug is out you should feel air rushing out as the engine is turned over ( remember to keep the plug lead away from your hand or you will get a shock from the ignition system).  The last thing is ignition timing.  This is the least likely cause and means that the spark at the plug is happening at the wrong time as the engine is turned over

If there is no spark at the plug, take off the distributor cap, make sure the points are closed, remove the lead from the centre of the distributor  cap.  Rest this lead close to a metal part of the engine and with the ignition turned on take an electrical screwdriver and flick the points open.  You should see and hear a spark between the centre lead and engine part.  If you have a spark then there is a fault with the rotor arm, distributor cap, or HT leads.   If no spark then there is a fault in the low tension side of the ignition system.  First make sure there is a 12 volt feed to the coil with the ignition switched on.  If there is then replace the points condensor and the coil.

I you haven't a spark I would seriously consider changing all the ignition parts ie coil, condensor, points, distributor cap, rotor arm Ht leads, plug caps and plugs.  A couple of notorious items in the system are the condensor and rotor arm.  Even new ones are sometimes faulty.    I hope this isn't too technical and helps you find the cause of your non starter.  After 45 years of messing with engines I haven't met one that could not be started eventually.


Ray, Mid Cheshire,1967 Mk1 2 litre vitesse.
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Stu 1986
June 17, 2012, 7:54am Report to Moderator


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Another thing to do is make sure the HT leads are plugged in, in the correct plugs. I know someone who spent months trying to start an engine, buying new carbs, ignition parts, fuel pump and even began looking at a new distributor before I checked the diagram and pointed out the error of his ways.   


1971 Triumph Herald 13/60 Convertible
Don't Trust Anything That Doesn't Have An Engine!
Location: Liverpool
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firebobby
June 17, 2012, 10:10am Report to Moderator


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It has been mentioned here before...Petrol, if the petrol is old, you will not start the engine on it.
I would buy a gallon of fresh fuel and run it straight into the fuel pump (bypassing the tank), at least you will be certain that the fuel is fresh and clean.
If you look at your last photo, you will see a round metal object with 2 pipes going into it, this is the fuel pump.
You will need to check the pipes as one goes to the carburettor and the other is the supply from the fuel tank, it's the tank supply pipe that you need to remove and then use a suitable  rubber/plastic pipe to go from the fuel can to the fuel pump (make sure the can is sited on a level safe area) and give it a try, but as stated, you must get the ignition working correctly as well.


South Bucks
1972 GT6 MK3
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