Paula's Vitesse! :: Triumph Torque

Triumph Parts Sign up for our Newsletter Rimmer Bros

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
Paula's Vitesse!
Forum Login
Login Name: Create a new account
Password:     Forgot password

Triumph Torque    Cars    Herald/Vitesse  ›  Paula's Vitesse!
Users Browsing Forum
Baidu Spider, Rosbif and 31 Guests

Paula's Vitesse! Print
69 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ... » All Recommend Thread
Hogie
January 12, 2017, 12:05pm Report to Moderator
Club Member
Posts: 1,374
Posts Per Day: 0.51
Hi Folks,
              adhesively bonding skins/panels etc together is a perfectly good and strong method of construction. But!!!

Aircaft have been bonded for decades and works very very well. Actually stronger than rivets as there are no holes (stress raisers) BUT!!!

The parts must be chemically cleaned (possibly plated) and the correct adhesive must be used - Araldite and 3M have an extensive expensive range.
More importantly the repair needs to be 'approved' if that is the right word.
Old car parts are generally welded or bolted. Bonding may be against the 'approved' design feature.

I have a shiny stainless steel air scoop on my 4A ventilation. The hinge has been bonded to the top skin. Araldite was used - it didn't come pout of a tube.

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
Logged
Private Message Reply: 135 - 1024
RobPearce
January 12, 2017, 12:10pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 1,781
Posts Per Day: 1.42
Quoted from Hogie
Aircaft have been bonded for decades and works very very well. Actually stronger than rivets as there are no holes (stress raisers)

Yes, but nobody would seriously condone the use of rivets to repair a chassis!

(Actually I did discover that my old 2500S had had a repair to the front suspension turrets performed by the previous owner's MOT garage using rivets but hopefully we're not such cowboys on here.)


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
Logged
Private Message Reply: 136 - 1024
Paula
January 12, 2017, 12:28pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 488
Posts Per Day: 1.20
Would the body have to come off to replace the rails and fit (if necessary) the strengtheners?  


Vitesse 6 Saloon  "Feargal" (Sharkey)
Logged
Site Private Message Reply: 137 - 1024
Jonny-Jimbo
January 12, 2017, 1:02pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 5,009
Posts Per Day: 1.22
Depends where the rot in the side rails is and how bad.

if it's where one of the bolts are, then it may do. If it's away from the bolted section then it MAY be possible to weld it with the body in place, but the sill panel removed. If you have not seen Paula, the side sills on Herald's are just a single skin panel that screw to the lower edge of the tub, and have four ( tabs that hold them onto the chassis too. Fairly simple to remove.


62 Vitesse 1600 - Slammed & modified
67 2000 - Fitted with 2.5 o/d - 2012 RBRR, 2015 Essex Rally, 2016 HCR, 2016 RBRR
67 2000 Estate - Dusty
70 Herald 13/60 - Many bits
77 CZ 125 Sport - 70 miles from new
77 Kawasaki KM90 - Shop hack
81 Yamaha DT125 - Restored
88 Ginetta G4/4 - Mid-Resto!
88 BMW E30 320i - For Sale
89 Citroen AX GT - Rally car!
90 BMW E30 318iS - Building to FIA spec
90 Mazda Eunos 1.6 - 'Popeye'
93 BMW 530i - Donor
95 BMW E34 540i - 4L V8
Logged
Private Message Reply: 138 - 1024
Paula
January 12, 2017, 1:21pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 488
Posts Per Day: 1.20
Quoted from Jonny-Jimbo
Depends where the rot in the side rails is and how bad.

if it's where one of the bolts are, then it may do. If it's away from the bolted section then it MAY be possible to weld it with the body in place, but the sill panel removed. If you have not seen Paula, the side sills on Herald's are just a single skin panel that screw to the lower edge of the tub, and have four ( tabs that hold them onto the chassis too. Fairly simple to remove.


Ok Thanks! I get it back tomorrow. I'll crawl underneath with my phone


Vitesse 6 Saloon  "Feargal" (Sharkey)
Logged
Site Private Message Reply: 139 - 1024
RobPearce
January 12, 2017, 1:22pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 1,781
Posts Per Day: 1.42
Quoted from Jonny-Jimbo
If you have not seen Paula, the side sills on Herald's are just a single skin panel that screw to the lower edge of the tub, and have four ( tabs that hold them onto the chassis too. Fairly simple to remove.

Simple in principle but I've yet to encounter one that didn't have every single one of those self-tapper screws rusted solid to the C-nuts or chassis rails. And one or two of them are awkwardly located for sorting that out. But you may be luckier than I have been


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
Logged
Private Message Reply: 140 - 1024
Hogie
January 12, 2017, 1:50pm Report to Moderator
Club Member
Posts: 1,374
Posts Per Day: 0.51
Hi Rob,
          not condoning rivets being used anywhere. I was simply explaining that bonding is significantly stronger than rivets.

Many modern super cars are now going over to carbon fibre structures simply because they are stronger  - the classic bonded structure.

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
Logged
Private Message Reply: 141 - 1024
Richard B
January 12, 2017, 1:58pm Report to Moderator

Richard Brake
Moderator
Administrator
Posts: 13,354
Posts Per Day: 2.66
Quoted from Paula
Would the body have to come off to replace the rails and fit (if necessary) the strengtheners?  


The siderails can be replaced in situ. I only learnt about the strengtheners recently. But they could be welded to the siderail before fitment and then the tab welded to the rear outrigger.

Replacing the rear outrigger in situ is more of a pain.  


Surrey AO and Triumph Hoover, Location: Guildford - Surrey,
Spitfire 2.5PI - 1967 having surgery, PI Saloon - 1969 RBRR x 3, PI Estate - 1969 (to restore), Stag - 1971 RBRR x 2,
PI Saloon MkII - 1971(stalled project), Sold some cars!  

Daughters own: Herald 1500 1961, Herald 1500 Coupe 1962, Dolomite 1300 1976, Herald 13/60 Estate 1970
Logged
Private Message Reply: 142 - 1024
ferny
January 12, 2017, 5:05pm Report to Moderator

Mr Hoppy!
Club Officer
Club member
Posts: 10,687
Posts Per Day: 2.57
Use rivets for the sills. No worry about rusting screws and they drill out in seconds.


Acclaim - fully working and on the road
13/60 Herald - mx5 powered and other such fun things, legal enough...
Mk1 2000 - it's still alive, just sleeping
Expert 815d - the slug

If in doubt, do up until you hear the crack and then go another 1/4 turn to ensure tightness.
Logged
Site Private Message Windows Live Messenger Skype Reply: 143 - 1024
efp
January 12, 2017, 5:46pm Report to Moderator

Posts: 445
Posts Per Day: 0.27
To be clear, I certainly wasn't suggesting bonding on that strengthening panel as an alternative to properly welding/replacing the rotted rail, it's a given that that needs to be done properly.

However, it's unclear to me whether that strengthener is factory-original or an aftermarket add-on to strengthen what Triumph originally thought was adequate. The fact that some owners here have never seen or heard of this item makes me suspect the latter, but I'm happy to be corrected.

If it is an add-on, then I was floating the idea in response to the question of whether it could be fitted without tub removal. I would humbly suggest that if Triumph thought the un-strengthened members were adequate then the strength added by the extra panel could not be detrimental to the structural rigidity or MOT-ability, but only add to it.  I'd even suggest that a layer of suitable bonding adhesive across the entire mating surface would create a stronger and easier bond than flange welding and avoid those cavity gaps that capillary action of water and rust love.

Whether Tigerseal/Sikaflex would be adequate I agree is arguable, the first thing that came into my head, and were it a structurally crucial joint which relied on its strength I'd also say no, (and god forbid rivets) but the manufacturers data sheets states it is suitable as a panel adhesive and as others have said, if glues are good enough for Maclaren, helicopter airframes, wings.spoilers, etc I see no reason why they shouldn't be used in this non-crucial instance as a simple-to-do adjunct to the existing 100% strength of the existing chassis members.  Applied to sound clean surfaces I've found Tigerseal to be a ferociously strong bonding agent across many projects.


As I said, just thinking aloud. I defer to the Vit/Herald experts.


1967 Spitfire MkII, nearing end of restoration
1965 Land Rover S2A, awaiting MOT
2002 BMW 535i,  daily driver, 114k on the clock
2004 Mercedes CLK 200K, alternate daily driver, 143k on clock
1976 International 464 tractor....
Logged
Private Message Reply: 144 - 1024
Nick Jones
January 12, 2017, 6:25pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 10,030
Posts Per Day: 2.21
The strengtheners are factory original.  My Vitesse chassis has all original outriggers/side rails and has these fitted.  They make excellent mud traps.  Not sure they contribute much structurally.

I think they would be reasonably easy to fit as part of a side rail replacement (using the method suggested by Richard above) but more or less impossible to add later.  Many cars have been running round for years without them so debatable whether they are worth the effort anyway.  Were I replacing the side-rails I'd start with a length of suitably sized ERW box section (40mm with 2 mm wall).

Tigerseal is indeed a ferociously strong bonding agent when used wisely.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
Logged
Private Message Reply: 145 - 1024
Mark Hammond
January 12, 2017, 9:15pm Report to Moderator

Posts: 3,712
Posts Per Day: 1.21
Quoted from Paula
Would the body have to come off to replace the rails and fit (if necessary) the strengtheners?  


No.  The outriggers and side rails can all be replaced with the body en-situ however, there is a specific factory bulletin which details this.  The only issue is welding the top seam of each outrigger to the mainrail.  Many cars had the outriggers replaced with the top edge unwelded, although far from ideal, I am sure that it really didn't make that much difference (says he dodging the missiles coming his way....

Siderail replacement is easy provided (a) the outriggers are sound and (b) the body mounts aren't rotten and crumbling.  Whereabouts are you based?

Mark


Herald 1200 Saloon, owned (in the family) from new, Royal Blue/Black trim
[color=purple]MX-5 Z-Sport (Tweaked to 200bhp)2007,
Suzuki Vitara S Auto, Cosmic Black, 2017.
Logged
Private Message Reply: 146 - 1024
JensH
January 12, 2017, 9:52pm Report to Moderator

Posts: 1,191
Posts Per Day: 0.30
http://www.fairpoint.net/~herald948/database/chassis.htm

Did replace both outer siderails (from Chic Doig - ebay) and one rear outrigger on a friends Vitesse last year. No problem with the body on.

Nice car btw.

/Jens
Logged
Private Message Reply: 147 - 1024
Paula
January 12, 2017, 10:17pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 488
Posts Per Day: 1.20
Quoted from JensH
http://www.fairpoint.net/~herald948/database/chassis.htm

Did replace both outer siderails (from Chic Doig - ebay) and one rear outrigger on a friends Vitesse last year. No problem with the body on.

Nice car btw.

/Jens


Sweeeeeet!


Vitesse 6 Saloon  "Feargal" (Sharkey)
Logged
Site Private Message Reply: 148 - 1024
Paula
January 12, 2017, 10:20pm Report to Moderator

Club Member
Posts: 488
Posts Per Day: 1.20
Quoted from Mark Hammond


No.  The outriggers and side rails can all be replaced with the body en-situ however, there is a specific factory bulletin which details this.  The only issue is welding the top seam of each outrigger to the mainrail.  Many cars had the outriggers replaced with the top edge unwelded, although far from ideal, I am sure that it really didn't make that much difference (says he dodging the missiles coming his way....

Siderail replacement is easy provided (a) the outriggers are sound and (b) the body mounts aren't rotten and crumbling.  Whereabouts are you based?

Mark


I'm in Streatham Saaaaaaaaaarf London


Vitesse 6 Saloon  "Feargal" (Sharkey)
Logged
Site Private Message Reply: 149 - 1024
69 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ... » All Recommend Thread
Print

Triumph Torque    Cars    Herald/Vitesse  ›  Paula's Vitesse!

Thread Rating
There is currently no rating for this thread
 


Powered by E-Blah Forum Software 10.3.5 © 2001-2008

Latest Blogs-
Steve Weblin

20th January 2018 09:49am gmt
Reads of Cheadle - Triumph Car Dealer 56
Theo Boonen

19th January 2018 7:13pm gmt
FHC resto nr. 61; Various small jobs
more blogs...
Next Group Meetings-
Worcestershire Wednesday 24th January 20:00
Nottingham Monday 29th January 19:00
Essex Tuesday 30th January 20:00
Cheshire & Staffs Wednesday 31st January 19:30
Coventry & Warwickshire Wednesday 31st January 19:30
Northern Ireland Wednesday 31st January 20:00
more local groups...
Upcoming Events-
CMC January Jaunt 12 Car Rally
26th January 2018
more events...
Wanted-
Dolomite Sprint Wanted. Must be manual OD, tax exempt. Looking for a tidy, usable car. Improvers considered, but not looking for a restoration project. Cash waiting, will travel. Contact Ade at ; bishop.ade@sky.c om

Herald Britax Weathershield Sun Roof, complete please. Bob Angell robertvangell1@ btinternet.com King’s Lynn Norfolk

Original Vitesse 2L Brake master cylinder, suitable for rebuild to convert my Herald.Pm Steve P on the forum or e mail prismsecsys@ btinternet.com

more adverts...
CLUB TRIUMPH the Club for all Triumphs
© Club Triumph Ltd MCMXCVI - MMXV