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J-type overdrive oil, fully synthetic? Print
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Dibnah
June 11, 2017, 3:35pm Report to Moderator

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Afternoon All,

I've used Triple QX EP 75w90 Transmission Fluid Fully Synthetic in the Stag MOD gearbox, which is shared with the J-type overdrive. Overdrive was OK for first 200 miles or so, now engaging by itself with the fuse pulled. I suspect that the solenoid is stuck, so at low speed there is not enough pressure to engage the OD, but as speed increases so does pressure, thus engaging the OD.

Another possibility is that the oil is creating the issue, even though the solenoid may be free. Lots of different views on OD oils, has anyone had problems with Triple QX EP 75w90 oil, or problems with other synthetic transmission oil?
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Nick Jones
June 11, 2017, 3:43pm Report to Moderator

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I am inclined to go with your solenoid diagnosis.  Possibly a lump of crud in it as synthetic oil may be a bit more detergent and loosened some ancient deposits.  Can be partially dismantled, cleaned and reassembled with new O-rings.

You need to be very careful about going backwards and make sure the OD is disengaged before doing it.  My view is that once released if you go slowly (5mph say) it won't build enough pressure to re-engage but others may differ.  If it does engage while reversing it will burst the one-way clutch, which is bad and to be avoided!

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Dibnah
June 13, 2017, 9:25pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks Nick

Possibly a combination of issues, the OD switch wiring inside the gearstick was damaged, also the switch was not crisp in operation. I have a new toggleswitch strapped temporarily to the side of the gearstick and wiring temporarily run outside the gearstick. The OD now pulls in very quickly, perhaps with too much of a bang (have to use clutch to smooth the change).

The OD is still slow to release when cold / warm, also pulls in when cold / warm with the toggle switch set for out. This improves when the engine / gearbox is hot.

This comparison borrowed from the TR register website compares viscosity of engine oils and gear oils at 100'C. It's possible that the 75W element of the 75W90 oil I'm using isn't viscous enough when cold/warm


I'll change the oil to 80W90 gear oil.
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Nick Jones
June 13, 2017, 9:39pm Report to Moderator

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It's possible to dismantle and overhaul the gearstick switch with a bit of care and subtlety and they usually respond well.

J-type ODs can be a little "abrupt" on engagement.  Release issues still sound a bit solenoid related to me.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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RobPearce
June 14, 2017, 7:28am Report to Moderator

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The combination of release issues with unusually harsh engagement might suggest a blockage in the pressure relief / return plumbing, resulting in abnormally high base pressure (preload). Or a sticky solenoid valve, of course.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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daver clasper
June 14, 2017, 4:14pm Report to Moderator
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Hi

Had problems with J type not engaging when switched/not disengaging when switched off, though engaging when disconnected.

After advice from Dave Twigger (Overdrive spares) I cleaned a replaced all o rings in solonoid and o rings in pressure relief valve. Fiddley, though good article by Buck Eye Triumph on net.

Been working fine for 4 years now.

Dave
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GT6 M
June 16, 2017, 7:32pm Report to Moderator

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I look at solly o rings first,
ive just had some very funny goings on
Which ODS and ORS says cannot happen,!!!

Im running 85/140 gear oil int OD, it works perfect
comes in v v quick,even at low revs wen cold
and even better wenst hot

M


One does not have to know how a thing works, to know that it is not working right

Ye div,nt efta no ooa thing wuks, t,no its nut wuk,n reet.







Scaryport,��Cumbria,.
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Dibnah
June 20, 2017, 5:39am Report to Moderator

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Thanks again for the replies, the car has overwhelmed me with other issues, including losing half the electrics (possibly the ignition switch) and a dragging clutch. I'll resolve both, go for yet another test run and then change the gearbox oil. If that doesn't fix the O/D problem then I'll remove the solenoid

I'll post a separate thread about the clutch.
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OBE
June 21, 2017, 7:10pm Report to Moderator

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Just a note on this, ive stuck religiously to a gl4 oil but modern multigrade oils all seem to be gl5 .. whats the opinions on using a modern gl5 oil ?
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cliftyhanger
June 21, 2017, 7:33pm Report to Moderator

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I would avoid unless compelling evidence that it is OK could be provided.

Comma make a semi-synthetic sx75-90 GL4 oil. Comes highly recommended by (probably) the best ford type 9 rebuilder. (they require GL4 too)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-SXGL41L-SX75W-90-GL-4-Semi-Synthetic/dp/B004P24XV6

or available at halfords for rather more....


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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Nick Jones
June 21, 2017, 8:46pm Report to Moderator

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Redline MT90 is good too.  Available from Opie.

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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Jonny-Jimbo
June 22, 2017, 7:46am Report to Moderator

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Do not use GL5 oil - it contains some detergents that GL4 does not, these are harmful to yellow metals like brass etc. If you use GL5 it will eat your syncro's etc and you may find that your gearbox and O/D fail in quick succession.


62 Vitesse 1600 - Slammed & modified
67 2000 - Fitted with 2.5 o/d - 2012 RBRR, 2015 Essex Rally, 2016 HCR, 2016 RBRR
67 2000 Estate - Dormant
70 Herald 13/60 - First car, many bits
77 CZ 125 Sport - 70 miles on the clock
77 Kawasaki KM90 - Shop hack
81 Yamaha DT125 - Many bits
88 Ginetta G4/4 - Dead
88 BMW E30 320i - For Sale
89 Citroen AX GT - Rally car!
90 BMW E30 318iS - Building to FIA spec
90 Mazda Eunos 1.6 - 'Popeye'
93 BMW 530i - Donor
95 BMW E34 540i - 4L V8
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dazzer
June 22, 2017, 8:09am Report to Moderator


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I've always used EP90 but on collecting my rebuilt/uprated later  J type (bigger layshaft bearings) and overdrive (bigger pump) from the Overdrive repair centre Sheffield, I was recommended to use engine oil... I'll let you know how it goes.


1965 2000 MK1 Rally project, HRCR rally championship, Hexham, 12 car night rallies, trials, autotests etc, etc.

1958 DKW 3-6 Coupe. Two stroke German rally contender, screaming demon! Where modern Audi originated from.

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Dibnah
June 29, 2017, 7:31pm Report to Moderator

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I've made no changes to the O/D or gearbox but the O/D is now working flawlessly following resurrection of the clutch. Cr@p in the solenoid that has now passed through? More reason for an oil change.
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Hogie
June 30, 2017, 8:21am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dazzer
I've always used EP90 but on collecting my rebuilt/uprated later  J type (bigger layshaft bearings) and overdrive (bigger pump) from the Overdrive repair centre Sheffield, I was recommended to use engine oil... I'll let you know how it goes.


Hi Dazzer,
             I'm amazed that ORS recommended engine oil.  Most (not all) engine oils contain quite a lot of detergent to keep the internals clean.
This could lead to frothing in a gearbox and cause the OD pump to stop working.

When my OD repairer (Hardy at Leatherhead) recommended engine oil I said I was going to use Penrite GB40 and he said that is the same grade.
So are we talking engine oil or 20/50 or SAE40???

IOt's a mine field out there

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
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dazzer
June 30, 2017, 9:47am Report to Moderator


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Hi Roger

I've not filled the unit as yet so I'll check with them again. I always previously used the GL4 EP90 but a layshaft let go and filled the previous OD with swarf. So I grabbed a late J type box that I recovered from a skip with the input shaft rusted solid, swapped out the input from the old box and filled it with EP90 GL5 and it lasted for 4 years of rallying with no ill effects!

Layshaft had started to grumble again so took that box into ORS who have done a beautiful job in rebuilding it. In its defence the 'skip' J type turned out to be one of the stronger later types.

I guess I was just lucky.

I'll report back on the oil recommendation.

Dazzer


1965 2000 MK1 Rally project, HRCR rally championship, Hexham, 12 car night rallies, trials, autotests etc, etc.

1958 DKW 3-6 Coupe. Two stroke German rally contender, screaming demon! Where modern Audi originated from.

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Ridgetone Triumph
June 30, 2017, 12:17pm Report to Moderator


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I'm guessing engine oil will still work ok???

I once filled the gearbox and diff in one of my MK1 2000's with automatic transmission fluid,  though a little noisy in the gear departments, it certainly helped with acceleration, being less friction!
Don't know how it would have been long term, I only used the car around town and no long journeys.
The race car ran with a thinner gear oil in the O/D box and had no problems.


1973 Triumph 2.5 PI Estate on su's, awaiting plans Hmm maybe I'll leave him as is
1981 Triumph TR7 V8 DHC��work now started work now stopped work started again work stopped again work started again work stopped again   work started again   work stopped again   work started again work stopped again   work started again  
1971 Triumph 2000 Sport
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Tim Hunt
June 30, 2017, 6:41pm Report to Moderator

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The recommendation in the TR4A Drivers' Handbook was an SAE90EP oil for gearbox/overdrive and back axle for all seasons in the home market. I found this oil gave a sluggish o/d engagement until really warm. Many years ago Pete Cox, who knows a thing or two about gearboxes, recommended I use a straight SAE40 monograde engine oil, which I did successfully for many years. More recently I have settled on Penrite GB40, with which I and my box are very happy.

Tim
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Pete Lewis
June 30, 2017, 9:28pm Report to Moderator

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On a J type its good to strip the inner piston out of the solenoid, a small 10mm circlip and knock out the hidden inner piston valve plunger,  yuo need a thin wall 1"af spanner, if youmturn the case you can wreck the solenoid.

ep  oils are generally required due to the tooth design and bearing loads,
Rootes cars use engine oil  as an example
Triumphs especially the small chassis 1 or 3 rail wont last
the big saloon /TR box is far more bullet proofed by design,

the overdrive is designed to run on engine oil but shoild be fine on a 80/90ep and was accepted
by laycock and triumph

pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Hogie
July 1, 2017, 10:47am Report to Moderator
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Just to throw more spanners in the works.

The 1950's Laycock (overdrive0 service manual shouted from the roof tops DO NOT USE EP oils.
The ingredients could get baked by the cone clutch and leave solid particles in the system and block the odd oilway or two

I appreciate that oils have changed over the years and may not do this.

EP oils are primarily for Hypoid gear types where there is serious sliding of the gear teeth.
This sliding is seriously reduced in a helical gear to a point where it can be ignored (almost !!).

Oils are designed for applications. So if somebody like Penrite say this is a gearbox/OD oil then that is it for me

Roger (Tin hat on)


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
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RobPearce
July 2, 2017, 9:32pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Hogie
EP oils are primarily for Hypoid gear types where there is serious sliding of the gear teeth.
This sliding is seriously reduced in a helical gear to a point where it can be ignored (almost !!).


Well... the amount of sliding on a helical gear is certainly much less than in a hypoid but it's not negligible. EP gear oil will increase the torque handling capability of the gearbox. Engine oil would be fine in a 2000 or a Herald but I'd be very wary in a GT6.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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Dibnah
July 7, 2017, 7:01pm Report to Moderator

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The saga continues, I now have a slipping clutch, almost certainly the O/D clutch rather than the "main" clutch on the flywheel. Doesn't slip when cold, but starts to slip and then grip as the engine / gearbox warms up. Slips whether O/D is in or not, O/D change previously was harsh and needed "main" clutch to smooth, now doesn't need clutch.

Above 70(ish)mph and the slipping stops, I assume because pressure increases. I've changed the synthetic EP75/90 to mineral EP80/90, no real difference, the synthetic oil was fairly grubby when drained, so it's probably been cleaning.

I've ordered a J-type solenoid spanner to get the solenoid off. I'll need to check the roll pins when I work out where they are.

  
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RobPearce
July 9, 2017, 11:22am Report to Moderator

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When you say it slips "whether O/D is in or not", does that mean the engine revs increase without road speed increase when it's in direct 4th? If so, it's almost certainly NOT the OD clutch.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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cliftyhanger
July 9, 2017, 1:30pm Report to Moderator

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Posts: 11,003
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Mine did...
I cheated and used a known good one off a spare gearbox.


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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GT6 M
July 10, 2017, 9:18am Report to Moderator

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One does not have to know how a thing works, to know that it is not working right

Ye div,nt efta no ooa thing wuks, t,no its nut wuk,n reet.







Scaryport,��Cumbria,.
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Pete Lewis
July 10, 2017, 4:06pm Report to Moderator

Tssc Herts and Beds A.O.
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the spanner is a thin walled 1"af  , the roll pins  are in the case to hold the sol base to the valve body, not all J types have them depends on age.  the sol case may be a bit of a slack fit , if you turn the sol. by gripping the case you can tear the pins off,  hence the silly spanner .
mine did all sorts of odd ins and outs without any preference as to when or how, it was the sol. inner piston 0 rings in Marcus's  post
the small   10mm circlip needs removing and tap the inner shuttle out as it can be stuck,  a shake of the sol. will rattle the piston  if its free

Pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Dibnah
July 22, 2017, 7:30pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks again for the replies.

I bought one of the bespoke spanners for the solenoid hexagon, the spanner opened up at the first attempt so it's hopefully going back to the seller. I've subsequently bought a 1" x 15/16" open-ended spanner (used) for butchery into something that should work. It's a Britool spanner but it will be sacrificed in a worthy cause.

Had the sump off the O/D, the high pressure filter was filthy, the suction filter was a bit cleaner. Pressure relief and pump were clean. Reassembled but didn't have the correct pin wrench for the caps. Used long nose pliers and then a tap with a punch, probably not tight enough though, some oil seeping past the cap for the high pressure filter at zero pressure.

The correct pin wrenches are apparently not available, adjustable pin wrenches for angle grinders are available. I'll also need to change the aluminium crush washer for the high pressure filter I'm assuming it's a crush washer for sealing, there are no "O" rings present for the HP filter cap and none shown on drawings I've seen.
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Dibnah
July 31, 2017, 4:33pm Report to Moderator

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The butchered Britool spanner did the job, solenoid removed. New seals fitted, the old seals on the inner piston looked a bit square. All fairly clean. However, I only have about 1.5mm of stroke on the inner piston when actuated by putting 12V across the solenoid terminals. There is something clunking around inside the solenoid, possibly the coil, so I'll need to knock the roll pins out to get the cover off.

A vendor was selling recon J-type solenoids for about GBP72 delivered, this would have been fine for me but no more in stock. Now most are over GBP100 where available
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Pete Lewis
August 1, 2017, 5:33pm Report to Moderator

Tssc Herts and Beds A.O.
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The outer case on j sols can be a rattle fit  its asloppy fit held on by the 3 pins

ive foud the inner piston does rattle when you give it a good shake

no idea how you remove the spirol pins   to remove the coil cover    its not exactly serviceable

dont mend it to destruction


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Dibnah
August 23, 2017, 6:09pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks Pete, I've locked the Stag away in frustration for now, perhaps get back to it at a later date.
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