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JohnD
August 5, 2017, 1:48pm Report to Moderator


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I posted this over on the TSSC site, but when I tried to link someone to it, they couldn't read it, because they aren't a member.    So much for the 'community of Triumph'!
Anyway, I reprint it here:

Correcting the sump flange, to prevent leaks

Triumph engines (car or bike!) are notorious for oil leaks.    In the small chassis series, four or six cylinder, the sump gasket is a guilty in many cases, and the DPO (Damned Previous Owner) is often at fault.  Overtightening the sump bolts bells the metal around the holes in the sump flange, to that the falnge inbetween doesn't seal.  Further tightenign just makes it worse, and the problem recurs even if you rebuild the engine, as the belling persists.    To correct this, it's necessary to do some minor fettling to the sump flange.  Here's how, with pictures.

1/ Clean up your removed sump, especially the gasket residues on the flange.  Do the same to the block.  Apart from bits of old gasket preventing a seal, you can't work on a filthy sump.

2/ With a strong light behind, place a straight edge along the flange.   The bells around the bolt holes will show up as light gleams through the slit.   Mark the holes with a felt tip.  See Pic.1.

3/ You need a 'post' in a vice.  I use a length of steel plate, 1/2 x 2 x 6", but some hard wood could do as well, but ask a local metal working company if you may look in their skip for an offcut.     It could be thicker, as long as it will fit inside the flange, and as wide as the the distance between holes, and the top must be flat.  See Pics. 2 and 3.

4/ Hold the sump so that the hole you wish to correct is in the middle of the post, and the flange is flat on the post.  I've drilled a smal hole there to help me locate it. Pic 4.

5/  Now, with a hammer, beat the bell around the hole flat.   Use a small hammer, and do not apply great force - the blow should come from the elbow, not the shoulder.   Half a dozen firm, not hard blows will often do, and you will hear the sound change from a ringing to a duller sound as the bell is flattened.   See pic 5.

6/ Check the flange with the straigt edge again.   Repeat the hammering until the gap that the light gleams through is straight.    Your flange may not be absolutely flat, indeed slightly curved, but correcting that is a much bigger job, and this amount of curvature won't cause leaks.  See Pic 6.
  
7/  When you fit the sump, do NOT overtighten the bolts.  The 'Book' torque is 16-18 lbf/ft, which is a bit more than hand tight.   What's 'Hand tight'?  is hard as you can turn the bolt just using hand and wrist strength.  What's "a bit more"?   GIve the bolt a final tweak with the whole arm.


Hope that helps prevent sump leaks!
John

PS  For some reason I cannot upload all the pics in the post.  They will appear below.



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Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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JohnD
August 5, 2017, 1:50pm Report to Moderator


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Pic 2, which appears sideways, a common and irritating problem.  Turn your head!



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Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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JohnD
August 5, 2017, 1:51pm Report to Moderator


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Pic 3



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Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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JohnD
August 5, 2017, 1:52pm Report to Moderator


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Pic 4.  Sideways again.  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!



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Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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JohnD
August 5, 2017, 1:53pm Report to Moderator


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Pic 5



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Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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JohnD
August 5, 2017, 1:53pm Report to Moderator


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Pic 6



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Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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1968Vitesse25
August 5, 2017, 10:57pm Report to Moderator

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Take a large ball bearing and put a divot in the mating face of the flange, dishing the flange up under each bolt head. As you tighten down the bolts,  the divots will flatten out giving you a true clamping face.

Fit sump gasket with a bead of Hylosil 300 RTV

no more sump leaks.
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Richard B
August 6, 2017, 8:42am Report to Moderator

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Nice and methodical John.

Just to add over-tightening the sump bolts can also create a nice S curve in the aluminium bridge piece.

Either repair it by skimming or replacing. I think the after market steel bridge pieces are a better bet for a leak free life.


Surrey AO and Triumph Hoover, Location: Guildford - Surrey,
Spitfire 2.5PI - 1967 having surgery, PI Saloon - 1969 RBRR x 3, PI Estate - 1969 (to restore), Stag - 1971 RBRR x 2,
PI Saloon MkII - 1971(stalled project), Sold some cars!  

Daughters own: Herald 1500 1961, Herald 1500 Coupe 1962, Dolomite 1300 1976, Herald 13/60 Estate 1970
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yorkshire_spam
August 6, 2017, 9:47am Report to Moderator

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Thanks for posting John, I suspect I need to do this to my sump soon!
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RedRooster
August 6, 2017, 5:03pm Report to Moderator


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Would a spreader plate between all the bolts help prevent the bolt holes distorting?


GT6 Mk3, the Rooster    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8W1XSjFB6g  tune on the radio the first time it broke down, 5 miles after i bought it
http://www.triumph-club-de-fra.....estauration-dune-gt6  
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Pete Lewis
August 7, 2017, 6:10pm Report to Moderator

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Some sumps do have a stiffener plate to minimise distortion, but after all these years its not a major problem,   a ball pein hammer and mallet to reverse the distortion will work well for the next 40 years
power take off coverplates on our exchange truck  gearboxes used this technique since the 1960s to revieve used plates

its common when sheet steel and thick paper   gaskets are mated together


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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Hogie
August 7, 2017, 7:00pm Report to Moderator
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Hi John,
              using a wood or nylon hammer may give a slightly better finish.
Steel hammers to flatten sheet can easily spread it.  Wooden hammers/mallets help compress the material.

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
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ferny
August 7, 2017, 7:37pm Report to Moderator

Mr Hoppy!
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There's a reason a lot of manufacturers use sealant now...

http://www.henkel-adhesives.co.uk/2838_UKE_HTML.htm?nodeid=8797716348929


Acclaim - fully working and on the road
13/60 Herald - mx5 powered and other such fun things, legal enough...
Mk1 2000 - it's still alive, just sleeping
Expert 815d - the slug

If in doubt, do up until you hear the crack and then go another 1/4 turn to ensure tightness.
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JohnD
August 8, 2017, 10:04am Report to Moderator


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Vitesse 25.
The objective of this work IS a "true clamping face".   Distorting the face to allow you to distort it again with the bolts?  Too much tightening force.

Richard,
An S-Curve in the Bridge piece?  I'd have to see a picture of that, to see what you mean and how sump bolts could achieve it.

RR,
A spreader plate between the bolt holes?   The flange is already indented in the pressing to stiffen the flange between the bolts, and there are spreaders between some holes, at the back.    I don't see how more will help.

Roger,
Fascinating!  How does a wooden hammer/ mallet compress, yet not spread the material?  How does a nylon hammer improve the 'finish', when all we want is a good seal?   Please show us your mallet with a head small enough to do the above job?   And please note my comments on controlling the force of the blows.

Ferny,
Yes? and what is that reason?

JOhn


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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nicmk1est
August 8, 2017, 10:15am Report to Moderator


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think it comes down to over-tightening! hand tight does the job not brute force.......i use pin hammer to flattened my sump holes


wanted: 
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RedRooster
August 8, 2017, 12:18pm Report to Moderator


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Quoted from JohnD

RR,
A spreader plate between the bolt holes?   The flange is already indented in the pressing to stiffen the flange between the bolts, and there are spreaders between some holes, at the back.    I don't see how more will help.
JOhn


the indents can't be working then or you wouldn't need to hammer the bolt holes flat again.
RR


GT6 Mk3, the Rooster    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8W1XSjFB6g  tune on the radio the first time it broke down, 5 miles after i bought it
http://www.triumph-club-de-fra.....estauration-dune-gt6  
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ferny
August 8, 2017, 1:24pm Report to Moderator

Mr Hoppy!
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Quoted from JohnD

Ferny,
Yes? and what is that reason?

JOhn


To seal it.


Acclaim - fully working and on the road
13/60 Herald - mx5 powered and other such fun things, legal enough...
Mk1 2000 - it's still alive, just sleeping
Expert 815d - the slug

If in doubt, do up until you hear the crack and then go another 1/4 turn to ensure tightness.
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Hogie
August 9, 2017, 8:25am Report to Moderator
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Roger,
Fascinating!  How does a wooden hammer/ mallet compress, yet not spread the material?  How does a nylon hammer improve the 'finish', when all we want is a good seal?   Please show us your mallet with a head small enough to do the above job?   And please note my comments on controlling the force of the blows.



JOhn[/quote]



Hi John,
             I'm not a panel beater but have learnt  a few things from a friend.
Take the example that you wanted to put a 90' bend in a piece of sheet steel. The bend also has  6" radius (compound curve).
The edge of the steel for the flat sheet is longer than  the edge of the finished article.
So you need to bend it on a dolly and somehow shrink the metal - otherwise it will pucker.

If you used a steel hammer each blow would tend to try and squish the metal and this make it bigger (stretch)
Using a wooden hammer/mallet that is softer than the steel the metal would bend but as it is trying to get more metal into a smaller place the metal would now start to compress'shrink.

So you get a neat finish with the wooden hammer than the steel.

Very bad explanation  but I'm sure there are good tin bashers on here that will explain better.

Rather than a smaller nylon hammer use a smaller nylon dolly.

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/shrinking-metal-with-mallet-stump

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
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Hogie
August 9, 2017, 8:30am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from RedRooster


the indents can't be working then or you wouldn't need to hammer the bolt holes flat again.
RR



The indents between the holes support the flange material. They do not support the bolt holes.
The indents have to finish away from the holes and so the hole can get distorted.
Without the indents there would be oil passing out everywhere.

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
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RedRooster
August 9, 2017, 9:15am Report to Moderator


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I know that which is why i mentioned a stiffener plate earlier.


GT6 Mk3, the Rooster    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8W1XSjFB6g  tune on the radio the first time it broke down, 5 miles after i bought it
http://www.triumph-club-de-fra.....estauration-dune-gt6  
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Gt6s
August 9, 2017, 1:18pm Report to Moderator


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Quoted from 1968Vitesse25


Fit sump gasket with a bead of Hylosil 300 RTV

no more sump leaks.


NO WAY once you have seen lines of silicone sealant hanging like snotters out of an oil pump strainer it puts you off the stuff. I use nothing more than a smear of grease on both sides of paper gaskets. Done that for years on cars, Trucks, Heavy plant, Fuel tanker delivery pumps, filter blocks and manifolds works on coolants air/fuel, and hydraulics. Bonus IN AN EMERGENCY you can reuse the gasket.

Laurence


I remember being wrong once before Laurence Cochrane Newtownards Northern Ireland. 1972 Gt6 2600EFI The Mutt. Some original parts fitted, Not many ! Early PI motor overbored to 2.6. Lightened & balanced, ported chambered, cam'd 6-3-1 manifold. Running on DTA engine management system incorperating the PI throttle bodies fitted with electronic injectors and throttle position sensor. 0-60 4.7s & 7000rpm. Seriously annoys owners of modern stuff ! (particularly coz its a heap) 2500 S box with competition 28% od. 3.63 diff with a quaife in it, innit ! Rotoflex based rear but with a swing spring fitted & sliding shafts.(swing spring rotoflex without rotoflex's). Koni's front Spax rear. Hydraulic handbrake. Citroen xantia discs 11,1/4 in dia under Morris Garages 15 in Maestro alloys.
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JohnD
August 9, 2017, 4:48pm Report to Moderator


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Roger,
That guy is clearly an expert, but I fear he misinterprets what he is doing.

The disk he demonstrated needed to be  made it into a bowl.     That's what happens if you hammer the centre of the bowl, and leave the rim untouched.
But the hammering must be right up to the rim, whose rim will crinkle if you stretch the adjacent metal too little.
He removes the crinkle by hammering just inside the rim, to stretch it more.

I do know whereof I speak - the 'bonnet bulges' on SofS and it's dad, Silverback were my work.

John




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Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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Hogie
August 11, 2017, 9:06am Report to Moderator
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Hi John,
          perhaps I posted the wrong/inappropriate video clip.

Making bulges is easy (sort of) shrinking the flange (or better still NOT expanding it) is more difficult.

Steel hammers are not the way forward for shrinking.

Roger


TR4A 1967 daily(ish) driver
TR41962  having surgery at present
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JohnD
August 11, 2017, 11:39am Report to Moderator


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Roger,
Panel beating is indeed an art, and every artist has their own way.
I'm happy to be a beginner!

JOhn


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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