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w3526602
August 13, 2017, 5:33am Report to Moderator

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Hi,

My research elsewhere suggests that if you take a Herald chassis, and chop off the clutter for'ard of the front suspension, the vehicle will then require an SVA.

A one-off fee for an SVA is a bullet I'm prepared to bite.

But my research also suggests that the resulting vehicle will lose it's Historic VED exemption, which takes a lot of the fun out of the exercise. And make it more difficult to persuade SWMBO ... she says we don't need three cars.

Can anyone comment, from their own experiences?

602
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cliftyhanger
August 13, 2017, 6:00am Report to Moderator

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I think an IVA would be pretty hard to pass with a Midge. Have you checked/read the IVA manual?
The cost is a bit eye-watering too.....

You may be rather better off buying one that needs a rebuild. Just make sure it is correctly registered.


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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marktheherald
August 13, 2017, 8:31am Report to Moderator


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It's not just for'ard of the front suspension,  you also lose the rearmost outriggers and the side rails are completely re positioned...
As Clive suggests, find a rebuild.  

  I'm feeling slightly smug,  I've re purchased my old Midge....


13/60 (1500 o/d) Estate

Eastbourne. E.Sussex.

     FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
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JohnD
August 13, 2017, 9:52am Report to Moderator


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See the DVLA pages: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)  NB UNmodified
a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)
You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine

But see also the "radically altered vehilce page" and the points system:
[To]Keep the original registration number
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Part     Points
Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)     5
Suspension (front and back) - original     2
Axles (both) - original     2
Transmission - original     2
Steering assembly - original     2
Engine - original


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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JohnD
August 13, 2017, 9:52am Report to Moderator


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See the DVLA pages: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)  NB UNmodified
a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)
You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine

But see also the "radically altered vehilce page" and the points system:
[To]Keep the original registration number
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Part     Points
Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)     5
Suspension (front and back) - original     2
Axles (both) - original     2
Transmission - original     2
Steering assembly - original     2
Engine - original     1

Lose 5 points for a modified chassis and you can still qualify for the original registration if all the other parst are OE.

John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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John Bonnett
August 13, 2017, 10:26am Report to Moderator

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I agree with Clive that it's doubtful whether a Midge would get through IVA without losing it's 1930s appearance and even if it did, it would end up with a Q plate. Definitely best to find one that has already been registered.

However, from what you've said none of the parts that have to be removed from the chassis are structural although it could be argued that perhaps the side rails are with the Herald body fitted. If the work to the chassis is approved then the Midge conversion would fall into the radically altered category and would keep the chassis number and registration of the donor car.

I would have thought a telephone call to  Swansea for clarification would be where you start because without approval of the chassis works it would not be a good idea to proceed.


La Coupe Florio 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-rtCbygnIM
GT6 to Spain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtFH-Q3n2Gg

Located Whiddon Down Devon
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roger.england
August 13, 2017, 11:58am Report to Moderator


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It is perhaps interesting to note that John Cowperthwaite - the designer of the Midge - has now produced a mark II version based on an unmodified chassis from a Suzuki Jeep. He did this because he knew that the original Herald based Midge would not pass the IVA. Also, whoever now owns the Sammio project (if its still in production) advertised their shell as being suitable for an unmodified Triumph chassis due to the IVA issues of a modified one. Midges do come up for sale fairly regularly in the UK and one requiring attention can be quite inexpensive, unlike one I heard had been offered for sale in France for €19,000!!


1971 Gilbern Invader
1956 Terrot 125 EMS
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John Bonnett
August 13, 2017, 12:41pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from roger.england
It is perhaps interesting to note that John Cowperthwaite - the designer of the Midge - has now produced a mark II version based on an unmodified chassis from a Suzuki Jeep. He did this because he knew that the original Herald based Midge would not pass the IVA. Also, whoever now owns the Sammio project (if its still in production) advertised their shell as being suitable for an unmodified Triumph chassis due to the IVA issues of a modified one. Midges do come up for sale fairly regularly in the UK and one requiring attention can be quite inexpensive, unlike one I heard had been offered for sale in France for €19,000!!


Is that your old car Roger?


La Coupe Florio 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-rtCbygnIM
GT6 to Spain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtFH-Q3n2Gg

Located Whiddon Down Devon
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thescrapman
August 13, 2017, 1:49pm Report to Moderator

Colin Wake
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Build it on a spitfire chassis?

You are just adding mounting brackets for the body that way?


Schadenfreude expert and collector of assorted rusty Triumphs on the Essex/Suffolk Border.

2010, 2011, 2013, 2015 and 2016 CT Navigators Championship winner.

10CR 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011 2013 - RBRR 1990, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 - Nachtrit 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012 - Chinese rally 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 - HCR 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 (3rd place), 2014. 2015, 2017

On the road.
1968 Spitfire Mk3 : 1973 TR6 : 1967 Herald 1200 Estate 1970 : 1968 Mk1 2.5PI 1968
Off the road
1967 Moss Monaco (Mk1 GT6 based) : 1970 Spitfire Mk4 : 1970 Mk2 2000 auto  : 1964 Mk1 2000  : Mk2 2.5PI
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John Bonnett
August 13, 2017, 3:05pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from thescrapman
Build it on a spitfire chassis?

You are just adding mounting brackets for the body that way?


I don't think that would work because the wheelbase on the Spitfire is eight inches less than a Herald.


La Coupe Florio 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-rtCbygnIM
GT6 to Spain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtFH-Q3n2Gg

Located Whiddon Down Devon
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marktheherald
August 13, 2017, 3:59pm Report to Moderator


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There was the option for construction on the Spitfire chassis.  It still involved modifications to the chassis, including removal of the front outriggers, but the rest of the mods were the ADDITION of rear shortened outriggers for the tie bars and new side rails. I suppose the front outriggers could be retained and used for some sort of body / wing construction and the retained front cross tube would have to be incorporated... and then argue the point about any additions...  Still a minefield and there will still be chassis mods.  

The shorter wheelbase was overcome by either a shorter body or longer bonnet panels. The instructions are a bit confusing on this subject...


13/60 (1500 o/d) Estate

Eastbourne. E.Sussex.

     FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
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roger.england
August 13, 2017, 4:49pm Report to Moderator


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Quoted Text
Is that your old car Roger?


No it wasn't my old car John, although mine has changed hands twice in France since last year, at what I am told was a greatly inflated price.


1971 Gilbern Invader
1956 Terrot 125 EMS
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thescrapman
August 13, 2017, 7:16pm Report to Moderator

Colin Wake
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A friend has a Spitfire based Midge.

Never notice it being out of proportion.

I thought it was OK to add brackets to a chassis for mounting the body.

Nothing to define the size of the brackets.


Schadenfreude expert and collector of assorted rusty Triumphs on the Essex/Suffolk Border.

2010, 2011, 2013, 2015 and 2016 CT Navigators Championship winner.

10CR 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011 2013 - RBRR 1990, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 - Nachtrit 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012 - Chinese rally 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 - HCR 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 (3rd place), 2014. 2015, 2017

On the road.
1968 Spitfire Mk3 : 1973 TR6 : 1967 Herald 1200 Estate 1970 : 1968 Mk1 2.5PI 1968
Off the road
1967 Moss Monaco (Mk1 GT6 based) : 1970 Spitfire Mk4 : 1970 Mk2 2000 auto  : 1964 Mk1 2000  : Mk2 2.5PI
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w3526602
August 15, 2017, 5:08am Report to Moderator

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Hi,

Wow! That was a response and a half.

I confess to "picking brains". Our current fleet consists of my wife's Hyundai i10, which is coming up for it's second service with <7000miles on the clock. I have to be cleanly attired before I an allowed in it, and am not allowed to carry mucky goods. The dog has to be confined to a small box ... white hair clings to the upholstery.

I have a 1959 LWB Land Rover (52ft turning circle, sub-20mpg) which I am adapting to carry a Romahome demountable camping pod taken from a Suzuki Carry (Bedford Rascal clone). This truck is VED and MOT exempt, but is not car-park friendly.

SWMBO says I can have a brand new car if I want one, but we don't need three cars, so the Land Rover would need to go. This is not a financial decision ... she just likes my company from time to time.

I am 78 years old (rising 14). I want a shopping trolley that can park in the tiniest spaces, carry the occasional bag of cement, and take the pooch to exciting places for walkies (my knees are 127 years old). I need two seats and a box. Hmmm! I wonder if talking about a motor bike and sidecar would concentrate SWMBO's mind?

To my mind, a Spitfire chassis would be a good base for a Special. During my formative years, Austin 7 Specials were the fashion, and they had a 75 inch wheelbase. Early Land Rovers had an 80" wheelbase. A Spitfire has no side or rear outriggers that need to be cut off, but it has a mass of "hamper" for'ard of the anti-roll bar.

One of the DVLA options is that a car with a modified chassis, and retaining at least two original components, may retain it's original registration, but would need an SVA. They do not mention a change in Tax Class ... Historic Exempt to PLG ... but I have read elsewhere that "All would be lost". I guess I can bite the bullet, pay the VED ... which for a new car is less than taxing a Herald (I think). But would the car then be eligible for a more stringent MOT ... emissions, rear fog lamps, hazards, etc.

I was hoping that a Midge owner had done the pioneering work on this, and could advise.

Let's say, for instance, you cut the rear outriggers off a Herald, welded on some flanges, and BOLTED the outriggers back on again ... and you could provide stress calculations provided by your local university. The car would need an SVA, but would the SVA be confined to just the chassis modification, or would the whole vehicle be subject to the latest C&U regulations?

602
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cliftyhanger
August 15, 2017, 6:39am Report to Moderator

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SVA disappeared a few years ago, replaced by IVA.
If a car needs an IVA, then it is the whole thing, so is tested to modern standards. Re emissions, if you can prove engine age then the emissions will be pegged to that.

There should be a selection of suitable cars available needing a rebuild or suchlike? really, something with "Midge" on the logbook (or similar) is what you want, and then "rebuild" away into whatever you wish  


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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