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Vitesse Mk1 2 Litre cooling Print
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69vitesse
December 16, 2017, 10:59am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang

Agree with what you say except the electric fan bit - depends which one you use as theres a lot of difference between a chinese 80watt jobbie and a Kenlowe 265w turbine....



There’s the problem, most people fit el cheapo  9” Chinese jobs that barely move the air.
It’s also worth noting that even the Kenlow was originally only sold as an additional fan, not a replacement for the belt driven one that will provide a gale of air at all times.

It’s important to note that while all modern cars use electric fans, it’s mostly for faster warm up and to save a few horse power and gain a few mpg. Also, the primary cooling on moderns is radiant as they use larger area radiators with much higher water capacity. On many moderns, the fan rarely cuts in, often only when you turn off the engine and you get a bit of heat soak.

If you are getting your rad recored, and after 50 years, it’s probably needs it, it’s worth getting a high capacity matrix fitted.
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RobPearce
December 16, 2017, 6:09pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 69vitesse
It’s important to note that while all modern cars use electric fans, it’s mostly for faster warm up and to save a few horse power and gain a few mpg. Also, the primary cooling on moderns is radiant as they use larger area radiators with much higher water capacity.


Sorry, but that's utter tosh.

Modern cars have significantly LOWER coolant capacity than old cars. That's how they achieve faster warm up. If electric fans were inadequate then modern cars would not use them. Electric fans work better than engine driven ones because they work WHEN THEY NEED TO.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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glang
December 16, 2017, 7:32pm Report to Moderator

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Its true moderns seem to go for thin radiators but with a large frontal area rather than small and deep as on many of our vehicles. Also I can guarantee that my 265w 14" Kenlowe fan fixed directly to the rad and spinning at 3000+ rpm pulls through far more air at tick over than the mechanical used to....
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69vitesse
December 16, 2017, 8:01pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from RobPearce


Sorry, but that's utter tosh.

Modern cars have significantly LOWER coolant capacity than old cars. That's how they achieve faster warm up. If electric fans were inadequate then modern cars would not use them. Electric fans work better than engine driven ones because they work WHEN THEY NEED TO.



Really? So a 1.4l Honda doesn’t take over 9 pints and 320 BMW over 13 pints vs the 8 pints of a 2l Vitesse or GT6?

Electric fans don’t ‘work better’ than a mechanical fan. Cooling is a function of radiator radiant area and airflow. You can alter the drive ratio of a mechanical fan to alter its CFM by changing the pulleys. And without a properly designed shroud, no electric radiotor mounted fan is likely to be much if any more effective than the stock crank mounted fan. Once you exceed 30 mph, the cooling is all airflow anyway.

Electric fans on older cars are overwhelmingly a ‘solution’ to the wrong cooling problem.
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69vitesse
December 16, 2017, 8:20pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang
Its true moderns seem to go for thin radiators but with a large frontal area rather than small and deep as on many of our vehicles. Also I can guarantee that my 265w 14" Kenlowe fan fixed directly to the rad and spinning at 3000+ rpm pulls through far more air at tick over than the mechanical used to....


Any engine that’s overheating at tickover, it’s not the fan that’s the problem.
My Honda CRV, 156bhp 2l only requires as a factory fit a 12” 5 blade 125w fan.
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glang
December 16, 2017, 8:30pm Report to Moderator

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Im in southern Spain and in traffic need all the cooling air I can get...
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Pete Lewis
December 17, 2017, 12:51pm Report to Moderator

Tssc Herts and Beds A.O.
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there is also moderns are far more efficient and  there is less heat wasted  despite the increased power from modern engines

our old things need a steady underbonnet aimbient tempertaure for that reason an constant running engine fan keeps the under bonnet temperatures at a more constant level, most with elecrtrics run into over rich  running
when stuck in jams or long stationery periods idling as the under bonnnet rises to unacceptable levels before the lecy fan cut in, and the load on the alternator drops the struggling idle to a stall, u goes the temp and restarts
prove difficult.

Triumph did more testing and data collection on cooling in many territories to develop somethng which worked
and after market sales of goodies cannot replecate that work

Pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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69vitesse
December 18, 2017, 2:41pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Pete Lewis
there is also moderns are far more efficient and  there is less heat wasted  despite the increased power from modern engines

our old things need a steady underbonnet aimbient tempertaure for that reason an constant running engine fan keeps the under bonnet temperatures at a more constant level, most with elecrtrics run into over rich  running
when stuck in jams or long stationery periods idling as the under bonnnet rises to unacceptable levels before the lecy fan cut in, and the load on the alternator drops the struggling idle to a stall, u goes the temp and restarts
prove difficult.

Triumph did more testing and data collection on cooling in many territories to develop somethng which worked
and after market sales of goodies cannot replecate that work

Pete




What Pete said.

I find it amazing how many people claim that they have an 'overheating' problem with Triumphs in the UK, while in places like Italy and other Mediterranean countries, Triumphs drive about in temperatures in the 40's without much fuss.

Triumph were pretty good at the induction/exhaust side of things.
Striping off the factory cold air inlet to fit 'free flow' pancake filters to 'let the engine breath' will actually cost you BHP and increase overheating.
Ditto the cast iron manifold. Only above 4,000rpm did a tubular manifold out perform a factory manifold according to Triumphs figures, and yet again, fitting a tubular manifold will increase dramatically under bonnet temperatures - see the factory race cars 'le mans' side grills'
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69vitesse
December 18, 2017, 2:41pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Pete Lewis
there is also moderns are far more efficient and  there is less heat wasted  despite the increased power from modern engines

our old things need a steady underbonnet aimbient tempertaure for that reason an constant running engine fan keeps the under bonnet temperatures at a more constant level, most with elecrtrics run into over rich  running
when stuck in jams or long stationery periods idling as the under bonnnet rises to unacceptable levels before the lecy fan cut in, and the load on the alternator drops the struggling idle to a stall, u goes the temp and restarts
prove difficult.

Triumph did more testing and data collection on cooling in many territories to develop somethng which worked
and after market sales of goodies cannot replecate that work

Pete




What Pete said.

I find it amazing how many people claim that they have an 'overheating' problem with Triumphs in the UK, while in places like Italy and other Mediterranean countries, Triumphs drive about in temperatures in the 40's without much fuss.

Triumph were pretty good at the induction/exhaust side of things.
Striping off the factory cold air inlet to fit 'free flow' pancake filters to 'let the engine breath' will actually cost you BHP and increase overheating.
Ditto the cast iron manifold. Only above 4,000rpm did a tubular manifold out perform a factory manifold according to Triumphs figures, and yet again, fitting a tubular manifold will increase dramatically under bonnet temperatures - see the factory race cars 'le mans' side grills'
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glang
December 19, 2017, 7:47am Report to Moderator

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Dont forget though that of all the Triumph models the Vitesse and GT6 are the most likely to be on the limit for cooling due to having started life with two cylinders and a load of cc's less. Then having a separate chassis with its rails running either side of the engine compounded the problem of finding space for the required extra cooling capacity....
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Pete Lewis
December 20, 2017, 8:14pm Report to Moderator

Tssc Herts and Beds A.O.
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Always amazed Its all these problems that made them last all theses years

if the basics are pretty close to being correct the cars will do what it says on the tin with no trouble

happy christmas

pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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69vitesse
December 20, 2017, 9:36pm Report to Moderator

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In days of old, when Triumphs weren’t so old,
Every town no matter how small had a back street radiator place.
There was a reason for that.
Flushing your rad was an annual chore, and having them recored because they had corroded or clogged up was a not uncommon chore too.

The original rads are now up to half a century old, and they where never made as durables.
It’s instructive to look at some of the cut open rads on the radiator repair places stands at the big classic car shows.
Having the original rad recored with a high capacity, high efficiency core will cost about the same as an electric fan.
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nang
December 21, 2017, 3:24am Report to Moderator

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Don't forget, that in those days,  antifreeze was pretty well an unknown thing. Most engine's were run on straight water.
Tony.


If all else fails-Read the Instructions! ��Wairoa
New Zealand

1976 2500TC (converted to S spec) owned since 1998.

1999 BMW 2800 cc Z3 Convertible.
 
2003 BMW 525i Touring.
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Nick Jones
December 21, 2017, 9:02am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from nang
Don't forget, that in those days,  antifreeze was pretty well an unknown thing. Most engine's were run on straight water.
Tony.


True that.  The cooling system of my 21 year old 300k+ Audi is still pristine as it's always been run with the correct anti-freeze mix and it's been renewed several times over the years.

Stark contrast to my old PI which had 2" deep deposits in the back corner of the block and took 15 minutes of chiselling to get the block drain to work!

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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bxbodger
December 21, 2017, 9:46am Report to Moderator

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Mine has a plastic fan from a TR6, bolts straight on, and about a million times better than the rubbish kenlowe that a previous owner had fitted as an 'improvement'.  There's only one place for electric fans, and that's on the modern cars that have cooling systems designed for them.


'68 Mk1 Vitesse convertible boneshaker, and a somewhat more economical '89 998cc A series powered Metro.
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