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Rosbif
December 21, 2017, 11:25am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from nang
Don't forget, that in those days,  antifreeze was pretty well an unknown thing. Most engine's were run on straight water.
Tony.


The drivers ran on straight whisky  


Ruby : 1968 13/60 convertible
"I'm not rich enough to buy cheap"

"If it isn't broken don't fix it" - where's the fun in that?
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glang
December 21, 2017, 12:20pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from bxbodger
Mine has a plastic fan from a TR6, bolts straight on, and about a million times better than the rubbish kenlowe that a previous owner had fitted as an 'improvement'.  There's only one place for electric fans, and that's on the modern cars that have cooling systems designed for them.


I say again, youve got to get the right one. Theres a large range of electric fans with a corresponding huge range of performances.....
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bxbodger
December 21, 2017, 1:41pm Report to Moderator

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The 'right one' is a crank driven mechanical fan as originally fitted. The kenlowe on mine was the 'right' Vitesse spec, but it gave rise to endless running problems in hot weather, and was noisy too, instantly solved by reverting to what Triumph intended. Note that Kenlowe have quietly dropped the fuel and BHP savings claims from their advertising.  On cars like ours they're a marketed novelty, but a bit like hi-torque starters theyre totally unnecessary on a normally maintained car.


'68 Mk1 Vitesse convertible boneshaker, and a somewhat more economical '89 998cc A series powered Metro.
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glang
December 21, 2017, 2:26pm Report to Moderator

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I just cant see how the original six blade motor driven fan turning at <1000rpm a couple of inches away from the rad can cool as much as my directly mounted 8 high efficiency bladed Kenlowe spinning at 3000+ rpm. Also Kenlowe dont produce for the public now so they have no advertising.....
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bxbodger
December 21, 2017, 3:10pm Report to Moderator

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The mechanical fan does something that's essential on a Vitesse that the kenlowe, or any other electrical fan for that matter, can't do, and that's to keep the underbonnet temperature down to a constant steady level. It's not about what air it pulls through the rad, the rad cools by radiation, as in the name, and a fan  isn't really that essential for  that. It's more about the actual ambient temp around the float bowls and fuel pump. Other people's experiences may be different, but I found that fuel vapourisation and lumpy running/stalling in heavy drive to work stop-start queuing traffic was a constant pain in the butt, even in the winter, until I junked the kenlowe and reverted to standard.




'68 Mk1 Vitesse convertible boneshaker, and a somewhat more economical '89 998cc A series powered Metro.
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glang
December 21, 2017, 8:12pm Report to Moderator

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I think youre getting a bit mixed up as, although its called a radiator, the vast majority of the heat loss is by convection as the air passing through it gains temperature so removing heat from the cooling water. Thus the more air the greater the cooling and it doesnt matter what pushes it as long as theres sufficient mass flow and as an additional benefit more flow will help keep down the underbonnet temperature as well.
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69vitesse
December 22, 2017, 1:08am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang
I think youre getting a bit mixed up as, although its called a radiator, the vast majority of the heat loss is by convection as the air passing through it gains temperature so removing heat from the cooling water. Thus the more air the greater the cooling and it doesnt matter what pushes it as long as theres sufficient mass flow and as an additional benefit more flow will help keep down the underbonnet temperature as well.




Actually, bxdodger is quite right.

Like nearly all older designs, the aerodynamics of the Vitesse, and GT6, the rounded under front apron, cause a high pressure area under the front of the car that tends to trap hot air inside the engine bay. See the bonnet louvres and gills on so many period cars to try and refuse under bonnet temperatures.
Moderns try and keep air from running down the front apron and under the car with an air dam so as to create a low pressure area that stops the nose lifting at speed, and also improves the efficiency of the cooling system by drawing hot air out of the engine bay.

A example?

Take the also designed by Michellotti Vitesse's very close half brother, the BMW 2002. BMW put a lot of wind tunnel development into the car once they went down the hot saloon route with the car and if you look at the front apron, you will see a small lip spoiler added to the bottom of the apron to stop lift by generating low pressure.

So yes, the design does need a steady fan provided flow of air into the engine bay to push out the jhot air that tends to be trapped in there.
Notice how hot a Triumph bonnet is after a run vs most moderns that remain almost cold to the touch.
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nang
December 22, 2017, 3:19am Report to Moderator

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FWIW all Australian and New Zealand 2500 S's were fitted with additional  Kenlowe fans, fitted in the front of the radiator in the factory. They were controlled by a temp switch on top of the motor. No doubt fitted as we were considered as 'tropical' countries. I've owned 2  S's  over the last few years and never did the fans come on or the cars overheat.
Tony.


If all else fails-Read the Instructions! ��Wairoa
New Zealand

1976 2500TC (converted to S spec) owned since 1998.

1999 BMW 2800 cc Z3 Convertible.
 
2003 BMW 525i Touring.
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glang
December 22, 2017, 8:27am Report to Moderator

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Yes the aerodynamics of these cars maybe suspect but the fan is for cooling when stationary or going very slowly so we cant blame that for any overheating under those operating conditions. Obviously if the engine bay is 'closed in' hot air will have a problem getting out but that will be the same for whatever type of fan is used and it would certainly be interesting to see the difference in stationary cooling with the bonnet open and closed.....
And Tony as youve found luckily the later 2000/2500 was designed for the six engine from the start rather than a 1200 four pot like the Vitesse/GT6 so there was more radiator space available
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timbancroft61
December 22, 2017, 9:35am Report to Moderator

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After years of suffering from high under bonnet temps and subsequent high interior temps in my GT6, I have found the best solution has been to fit a VW Golf rad and associated piping and a header tank mounted on the bulkhead, as Roy Lacey's design. Works fantastically well. I think the surface area of the rad plus the increase in coolant capacity has been the cure.

My Saloon never runs hot, this being due to having a radiator that has a decent surface area. The louvres I had put into the bonnet knocked coolant temps down by 5 degrees C.

Both cars have Pacet fans that are controlled by a rad switch let into the bottom tank, the GT6 having a override switch.

Because of these cures, both cars run very well with no signs of poor running.


Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run (Part of the organising team, what a team)!
RBRR is the best car event in the UK, not probably, it is!

1970 GT6 Mk.2: Royal Blue 6 RBRRs (98, 00,02,04,06 & 10), 2 10CRs (03 & 07). 2 HCRs 1 LCC, lots of Autosolos and numerous track days. Bought in 1983, crikey where did the time go! Now running the Roy Lacey cooling system!

1969 2.5Pi Mk.1: Slate Grey 3 10CRs (05,09 & 15), 3 RBRRs (08, 12 & 16), 3 HCRs, 2 LCCs. A few alloy panels, does need the pi kit fitting. Bought April '04. Needs paint! Just fitted some new 7J Minilites-not copies!

1967 Spitfire mk2: Wedgewood Blue. Bought November 2010. Almost seems civilised. Car has done a RBRR (Dave Picton 2010). Blimey, could be on the road soon!
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JohnD
December 22, 2017, 10:10am Report to Moderator


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Quoted from 69vitesse

Like nearly all older designs, the aerodynamics of the Vitesse, and GT6, the rounded under front apron, cause a high pressure area under the front of the car that tends to trap hot air inside the engine bay. See the bonnet louvres and gills on so many period cars to try and refuse under bonnet temperatures.
Moderns try and keep air from running down the front apron and under the car with an air dam so as to create a low pressure area that stops the nose lifting at speed, and also improves the efficiency of the cooling system by drawing hot air out of the engine bay.

A example?

Take the also designed by Michellotti Vitesse's very close half brother, the BMW 2002. BMW put a lot of wind tunnel development into the car once they went down the hot saloon route with the car and if you look at the front apron, you will see a small lip spoiler added to the bottom of the apron to stop lift by generating low pressure.

So yes, the design does need a steady fan provided flow of air into the engine bay to push out the jhot air that tends to be trapped in there.
Notice how hot a Triumph bonnet is after a run vs most moderns that remain almost cold to the touch.


This deserves a whole new thread, but a lip spoiler doesn't produce los pressure, but high!

There is a 'static point' on the front of a moving object, for a flat front one like a Herald/Vitesse or a 2002, its a static area, where pressure is high because flow is low (Bernouille).   A lip below that point/area experiences the raised pressure, and reduces lift.    It will also direct flow away from below the vehicle, reducing flow underneath, increasing velocity and reducing pressure (Bernouille, again).

So a lip in creases pressure in front and reduces underneath.    If that improves extraction fro the engine e bay, I can't say, except that louvres are useless!
John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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69vitesse
December 22, 2017, 11:48am Report to Moderator

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Yes John, when you examine the air pressures as an entirety, but the primary purpose is to stop air going down under the planing bow and lifting the nose.
A very interesting little article that explains in detail the issues with the very similar BMW 2002 and other period cars. The nose design really was awful!

As you note, a coraally  of the lip spoiler is you increase air pressure around the front of the cars nose… its a win-win. More air into the rad thanks to high pressure, and low pressure under the car also improving cooling.
'Aerodynamics weren't really understood in the 50's and 60's, a curved apron is going to cut through the air, nest pas?
See the Lambourghini Miura that had a rather famous habit of trying to take off as the high speeds it could achieve built up a huge high pressure bubble lifting the nose.

But with factory and race team design work done on a very similar body, its well worth examining the fruits of their wind tunnel labours


http://www.2002tii.org/kb/270
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JohnD
December 22, 2017, 1:29pm Report to Moderator


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Trying to clarify my point:

The spoiler lip will not increase pressure in the static area.    It uses that high pressure by allowing it to bear on the upper surface of the lip, to produce a downforce.

Flow in the static area is stalled - more pressure won't push more into the radiator.

Which race team's aero work do you refer to?  I'd love to see it!
I've wanted to do some aero on TRiumphs, becasue as you say, manufacturers in those days didn't do any.
The tunnel at MIRA is sometimes available, but never at less than hundred of pounds an hour.

Of course, the leaders in F1 now don't biother with wind tunnels - its all done in CFD, Computational Flow Dynamics, and inside a computer!
John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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daver clasper
December 22, 2017, 1:45pm Report to Moderator
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Some of my own "Laymans" thoughts for what their worth.

Iv'e not seen any comments regarding overheating/running hot on the gauge in any road tests of the time when these cars were new/er and would have had healthier cooling systems than many current classics of today (though of course the ambient temp may well have been average on the test days).

Was there any hearsay around at the time these cars were everyday (but not too old runners) about them being prone to overheating?.
Lots of them would have likely to have been stuck in say holiday jams on hot days at some point.

On the London to Brighton run for mainly 60's/70's classics a few years ago an a fairly warm day, quite a few cars were arriving and then parked with bonnets up and electric fans still running (boy was some heat coming off those engines), which I surmised may have been down to age old blockage in rads/flow channels from when these cars may have been neglected bangers.

So, I'm wondering how good a base point some current classics will have when assessing this issue that some have

Cheers, Dave
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69vitesse
December 22, 2017, 4:21pm Report to Moderator

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