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daver clasper
December 13, 2017, 7:07pm Report to Moderator
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Hi
My Vitesse has standard cooling system and 6 blade metal fan.

The hottest it get's (on the gauge) on very hot days with long idling is 3/4 (never overheated with water boiling over).

Running on open road about a 1/4 on gauge.

I understand gauges can not be too accurate.

So, with cooling on 6 cylinder small chassis cars being a bit marginal anyway, I think it's ok.

I don't wan't to go electric fan, but wondering if the 8 blade plastic could be useful and if so, are they a straight swap?.

Any help great, thanks.

Dave
  
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nang
December 14, 2017, 4:23am Report to Moderator

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I wouldn't be too worried . My 2500 ,on a really hot (30 degrees(C) day gets about half way between 1/2 and 3/4 but never uses any water.As you say ,gauges aren't that accurate. I'm waiting for a new viscous coupling though as mine is loose and noisy. I don't  this is a problem but don't really want it to fall apart and go through the radiator. Or maybe the radiator could use a flush.
Tony.


If all else fails-Read the Instructions! ��Wairoa
New Zealand

1976 2500TC (converted to S spec) owned since 1998.

1999 BMW 2800 cc Z3 Convertible.
 
2003 BMW 525i Touring.
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glang
December 14, 2017, 7:58am Report to Moderator

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These fans are listed as a direct upgrade for the Vitesse but look at the price for a bit of plastic! Your car seems to be one of the lucky ones on cooling so I would spend that money on something thats better value....

http://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/fan-blades-2
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cliftyhanger
December 14, 2017, 8:04am Report to Moderator

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I think the plastic blades are a bit more efficient, and can be better balanced.
They used to be common secondhand for a tenner, not sure if that is still the case.Doubtful, but shouldn't be a fortune. But if cheap enough, buy one and try it! And yes, straight swap.


Clive Senior

Location-Brighton, East Sussex
Foxy is here, 1500od tax exempt Toledo. Now has the decent engine back in Slant 4 engine bolted in, sprint box and axle.Now has fresh MoT. Needs paint though.
Spitfire Zetec project is started work progressing slooooowly on the road!
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JohnD
December 14, 2017, 11:05am Report to Moderator


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Dave,
Not broke, Why fix?

Jhn


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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Pete Lewis
December 14, 2017, 6:19pm Report to Moderator

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I  fitted a 7 blade plastic , the main improvement is noise reduction
the multi blades are much quieter than the  metal  fan.


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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daver clasper
December 14, 2017, 7:25pm Report to Moderator
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Thanks a lot for your advice folks.

Might look out for a cheap, second hand plastic one (cos I like a bit of cheap/harmless fun, messing about aside from the chores).

From the above replies, not sure if they are 7 or 8 blade?.

Cheers, Dave
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mazfg
December 14, 2017, 8:19pm Report to Moderator


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I bought one of these secondhand ones from Chris witor a few years back and swapped for my heavy metal 6 blade on my Vitesse 6.  Definitely helped

http://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.php?prod=308353SH


Current: Triumph Vitesse 6 convertible with O/D 1964

21 Years ago...and my first car! : Triumph Herald 1200 Saloon/ Tristan conversion 1966
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glang
December 14, 2017, 10:34pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from daver clasper
Thanks a lot for your advice folks.

Might look out for a cheap, second hand plastic one (cos I like a bit of cheap/harmless fun, messing about aside from the chores).

From the above replies, not sure if they are 7 or 8 blade?.

Cheers, Dave


I think the 7 blade items come from spitfires and heralds where they were fitted to the water pumps while the 8 blades were used on TR6 installed on their crankshafts and they appear to be interchangeable. A additional benefit might be had from the sale of your quite valuable original fan......

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mazfg
December 15, 2017, 7:32am Report to Moderator


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Quoted from glang


. A additional benefit might be had from the sale of your quite valuable original fan......



I tried selling mine on ebay after I changed for the plastic 8 blade yellow.....alas I had no interest...


Current: Triumph Vitesse 6 convertible with O/D 1964

21 Years ago...and my first car! : Triumph Herald 1200 Saloon/ Tristan conversion 1966
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RobPearce
December 15, 2017, 8:41am Report to Moderator

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I tried selling one to somebody on here who explicitly wanted one. Apparently it wasn't pretty enough.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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Rosbif
December 15, 2017, 11:37am Report to Moderator

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I've got a plastic 7 blade fan to fit to my Herald in place of the metal 4 blade item.

It seems the 7 blade version for Spits & Heralds was an "export upgrade" fitment, presumably as "export" meant warmer climate.

I'm in Normandy and as you all know the climate here is always hot, dry and sunny.   So the export upgrade should help no end.  


Ruby : 1968 13/60 convertible
"I'm not rich enough to buy cheap"

"If it isn't broken don't fix it" - where's the fun in that?
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glang
December 15, 2017, 12:37pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from RobPearce
I tried selling one to somebody on here who explicitly wanted one. Apparently it wasn't pretty enough.


This one looks like it went for 81quid plus postage and its certainly not pretty!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRI....._cvip=true&rt=nc

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69vitesse
December 16, 2017, 9:48am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from daver clasper
Hi
My Vitesse has standard cooling system and 6 blade metal fan.

The hottest it get's (on the gauge) on very hot days with long idling is 3/4 (never overheated with water boiling over).

Running on open road about a 1/4 on gauge.

I understand gauges can not be too accurate.

So, with cooling on 6 cylinder small chassis cars being a bit marginal anyway, I think it's ok.

I don't wan't to go electric fan, but wondering if the 8 blade plastic could be useful and if so, are they a straight swap?.

Any help great, thanks.

Dave
  


As you’ve demonstrated, the cooling system isn’t particularly marginal, it’s adequate for the job.
Most ‘overheating’: issues can be tracked back to a combination of 50 years of crud in the system, 95 octane unleaded petrol that requires the ignition retarding, (use super unleaded), ‘free flow’ tubular manifolds that massively raise under bonnet temperatures, and that other great offender, the electric cooling fan that’s far less effective than the original factory fan.

Worth fitting the plastic fan as others have said for a dramatic reduction in noise though.
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glang
December 16, 2017, 10:14am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 69vitesse


As you’ve demonstrated, the cooling system isn’t particularly marginal, it’s adequate for the job.
Most ‘overheating’: issues can be tracked back to a combination of 50 years of crud in the system, 95 octane unleaded petrol that requires the ignition retarding, (use super unleaded), ‘free flow’ tubular manifolds that massively raise under bonnet temperatures, and that other great offender, the electric cooling fan that’s far less effective than the original factory fan.

Worth fitting the plastic fan as others have said for a dramatic reduction in noise though.

Agree with what you say except the electric fan bit - depends which one you use as theres a lot of difference between a chinese 80watt jobbie and a Kenlowe 265w turbine....

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69vitesse
December 16, 2017, 10:59am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang

Agree with what you say except the electric fan bit - depends which one you use as theres a lot of difference between a chinese 80watt jobbie and a Kenlowe 265w turbine....



There’s the problem, most people fit el cheapo  9” Chinese jobs that barely move the air.
It’s also worth noting that even the Kenlow was originally only sold as an additional fan, not a replacement for the belt driven one that will provide a gale of air at all times.

It’s important to note that while all modern cars use electric fans, it’s mostly for faster warm up and to save a few horse power and gain a few mpg. Also, the primary cooling on moderns is radiant as they use larger area radiators with much higher water capacity. On many moderns, the fan rarely cuts in, often only when you turn off the engine and you get a bit of heat soak.

If you are getting your rad recored, and after 50 years, it’s probably needs it, it’s worth getting a high capacity matrix fitted.
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RobPearce
December 16, 2017, 6:09pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from 69vitesse
It’s important to note that while all modern cars use electric fans, it’s mostly for faster warm up and to save a few horse power and gain a few mpg. Also, the primary cooling on moderns is radiant as they use larger area radiators with much higher water capacity.


Sorry, but that's utter tosh.

Modern cars have significantly LOWER coolant capacity than old cars. That's how they achieve faster warm up. If electric fans were inadequate then modern cars would not use them. Electric fans work better than engine driven ones because they work WHEN THEY NEED TO.


Current fleet
1967 Vitesse 2L conv "Tessa"
1970 Spitfire Mk3 (project) "Toby"
1972 GT6 Mk3
Not enough time or space
Recently sold:
1972 2.5 PI estate "Harry" (gone to russell on here)
1973 Toledo 2-door "Spike" (gone to a club official)
Used to have:
1968 Vitesse 2L saloon
1980 Dolomite 1500
1977 Dolomite 1850
1980 Dolomite Sprint
1982 TR7 DHC Sprint
1975 2500S saloon
1971 Herald 13/60 Estate (with 1500 Spit engine)
1975 Stag
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glang
December 16, 2017, 7:32pm Report to Moderator

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Its true moderns seem to go for thin radiators but with a large frontal area rather than small and deep as on many of our vehicles. Also I can guarantee that my 265w 14" Kenlowe fan fixed directly to the rad and spinning at 3000+ rpm pulls through far more air at tick over than the mechanical used to....
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69vitesse
December 16, 2017, 8:01pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from RobPearce


Sorry, but that's utter tosh.

Modern cars have significantly LOWER coolant capacity than old cars. That's how they achieve faster warm up. If electric fans were inadequate then modern cars would not use them. Electric fans work better than engine driven ones because they work WHEN THEY NEED TO.



Really? So a 1.4l Honda doesn’t take over 9 pints and 320 BMW over 13 pints vs the 8 pints of a 2l Vitesse or GT6?

Electric fans don’t ‘work better’ than a mechanical fan. Cooling is a function of radiator radiant area and airflow. You can alter the drive ratio of a mechanical fan to alter its CFM by changing the pulleys. And without a properly designed shroud, no electric radiotor mounted fan is likely to be much if any more effective than the stock crank mounted fan. Once you exceed 30 mph, the cooling is all airflow anyway.

Electric fans on older cars are overwhelmingly a ‘solution’ to the wrong cooling problem.
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69vitesse
December 16, 2017, 8:20pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang
Its true moderns seem to go for thin radiators but with a large frontal area rather than small and deep as on many of our vehicles. Also I can guarantee that my 265w 14" Kenlowe fan fixed directly to the rad and spinning at 3000+ rpm pulls through far more air at tick over than the mechanical used to....


Any engine that’s overheating at tickover, it’s not the fan that’s the problem.
My Honda CRV, 156bhp 2l only requires as a factory fit a 12” 5 blade 125w fan.
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glang
December 16, 2017, 8:30pm Report to Moderator

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Im in southern Spain and in traffic need all the cooling air I can get...
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Pete Lewis
December 17, 2017, 12:51pm Report to Moderator

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there is also moderns are far more efficient and  there is less heat wasted  despite the increased power from modern engines

our old things need a steady underbonnet aimbient tempertaure for that reason an constant running engine fan keeps the under bonnet temperatures at a more constant level, most with elecrtrics run into over rich  running
when stuck in jams or long stationery periods idling as the under bonnnet rises to unacceptable levels before the lecy fan cut in, and the load on the alternator drops the struggling idle to a stall, u goes the temp and restarts
prove difficult.

Triumph did more testing and data collection on cooling in many territories to develop somethng which worked
and after market sales of goodies cannot replecate that work

Pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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69vitesse
December 18, 2017, 2:41pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Pete Lewis
there is also moderns are far more efficient and  there is less heat wasted  despite the increased power from modern engines

our old things need a steady underbonnet aimbient tempertaure for that reason an constant running engine fan keeps the under bonnet temperatures at a more constant level, most with elecrtrics run into over rich  running
when stuck in jams or long stationery periods idling as the under bonnnet rises to unacceptable levels before the lecy fan cut in, and the load on the alternator drops the struggling idle to a stall, u goes the temp and restarts
prove difficult.

Triumph did more testing and data collection on cooling in many territories to develop somethng which worked
and after market sales of goodies cannot replecate that work

Pete




What Pete said.

I find it amazing how many people claim that they have an 'overheating' problem with Triumphs in the UK, while in places like Italy and other Mediterranean countries, Triumphs drive about in temperatures in the 40's without much fuss.

Triumph were pretty good at the induction/exhaust side of things.
Striping off the factory cold air inlet to fit 'free flow' pancake filters to 'let the engine breath' will actually cost you BHP and increase overheating.
Ditto the cast iron manifold. Only above 4,000rpm did a tubular manifold out perform a factory manifold according to Triumphs figures, and yet again, fitting a tubular manifold will increase dramatically under bonnet temperatures - see the factory race cars 'le mans' side grills'
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69vitesse
December 18, 2017, 2:41pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Pete Lewis
there is also moderns are far more efficient and  there is less heat wasted  despite the increased power from modern engines

our old things need a steady underbonnet aimbient tempertaure for that reason an constant running engine fan keeps the under bonnet temperatures at a more constant level, most with elecrtrics run into over rich  running
when stuck in jams or long stationery periods idling as the under bonnnet rises to unacceptable levels before the lecy fan cut in, and the load on the alternator drops the struggling idle to a stall, u goes the temp and restarts
prove difficult.

Triumph did more testing and data collection on cooling in many territories to develop somethng which worked
and after market sales of goodies cannot replecate that work

Pete




What Pete said.

I find it amazing how many people claim that they have an 'overheating' problem with Triumphs in the UK, while in places like Italy and other Mediterranean countries, Triumphs drive about in temperatures in the 40's without much fuss.

Triumph were pretty good at the induction/exhaust side of things.
Striping off the factory cold air inlet to fit 'free flow' pancake filters to 'let the engine breath' will actually cost you BHP and increase overheating.
Ditto the cast iron manifold. Only above 4,000rpm did a tubular manifold out perform a factory manifold according to Triumphs figures, and yet again, fitting a tubular manifold will increase dramatically under bonnet temperatures - see the factory race cars 'le mans' side grills'
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glang
December 19, 2017, 7:47am Report to Moderator

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Dont forget though that of all the Triumph models the Vitesse and GT6 are the most likely to be on the limit for cooling due to having started life with two cylinders and a load of cc's less. Then having a separate chassis with its rails running either side of the engine compounded the problem of finding space for the required extra cooling capacity....
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Pete Lewis
December 20, 2017, 8:14pm Report to Moderator

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Always amazed Its all these problems that made them last all theses years

if the basics are pretty close to being correct the cars will do what it says on the tin with no trouble

happy christmas

pete


1964 1600 Vitesse 6 Cactus and Black , now  sold
now have T2000   Mk2 saloon in French Blue/grey trim  been  restored without running since 1997
now has power steering ,poly bushed and Alfa 156 seats
location  Luton
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69vitesse
December 20, 2017, 9:36pm Report to Moderator

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In days of old, when Triumphs weren’t so old,
Every town no matter how small had a back street radiator place.
There was a reason for that.
Flushing your rad was an annual chore, and having them recored because they had corroded or clogged up was a not uncommon chore too.

The original rads are now up to half a century old, and they where never made as durables.
It’s instructive to look at some of the cut open rads on the radiator repair places stands at the big classic car shows.
Having the original rad recored with a high capacity, high efficiency core will cost about the same as an electric fan.
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nang
December 21, 2017, 3:24am Report to Moderator

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Don't forget, that in those days,  antifreeze was pretty well an unknown thing. Most engine's were run on straight water.
Tony.


If all else fails-Read the Instructions! ��Wairoa
New Zealand

1976 2500TC (converted to S spec) owned since 1998.

1999 BMW 2800 cc Z3 Convertible.
 
2003 BMW 525i Touring.
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Nick Jones
December 21, 2017, 9:02am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from nang
Don't forget, that in those days,  antifreeze was pretty well an unknown thing. Most engine's were run on straight water.
Tony.


True that.  The cooling system of my 21 year old 300k+ Audi is still pristine as it's always been run with the correct anti-freeze mix and it's been renewed several times over the years.

Stark contrast to my old PI which had 2" deep deposits in the back corner of the block and took 15 minutes of chiselling to get the block drain to work!

Nick


Nick Jones
Somerset UK

Vitesse Mk 1.5 Convertible EFI, Survivor of RBRR 2008, HCR & 10CR 2009, HCR 2010, 10CR2011, HCR 2012, 10CR2013, 10CR2015, HCR 2016 & HCR 2017.
GT6 Mk3 Roto - project in progress
Spitfire MKIV son's project now on the road as a daily driver
2.5 PI Saloon now EFI (PIe?), Engine rebuilt and running sweet.  Diff howling...... Survivor of HCR 2013 & 2014 Gone to live in Swansea

http://www.tengaston.plus.com
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bxbodger
December 21, 2017, 9:46am Report to Moderator

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Mine has a plastic fan from a TR6, bolts straight on, and about a million times better than the rubbish kenlowe that a previous owner had fitted as an 'improvement'.  There's only one place for electric fans, and that's on the modern cars that have cooling systems designed for them.


'68 Mk1 Vitesse convertible boneshaker, and a somewhat more economical '89 998cc A series powered Metro.
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Rosbif
December 21, 2017, 11:25am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from nang
Don't forget, that in those days,  antifreeze was pretty well an unknown thing. Most engine's were run on straight water.
Tony.


The drivers ran on straight whisky  


Ruby : 1968 13/60 convertible
"I'm not rich enough to buy cheap"

"If it isn't broken don't fix it" - where's the fun in that?
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glang
December 21, 2017, 12:20pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from bxbodger
Mine has a plastic fan from a TR6, bolts straight on, and about a million times better than the rubbish kenlowe that a previous owner had fitted as an 'improvement'.  There's only one place for electric fans, and that's on the modern cars that have cooling systems designed for them.


I say again, youve got to get the right one. Theres a large range of electric fans with a corresponding huge range of performances.....
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bxbodger
December 21, 2017, 1:41pm Report to Moderator

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The 'right one' is a crank driven mechanical fan as originally fitted. The kenlowe on mine was the 'right' Vitesse spec, but it gave rise to endless running problems in hot weather, and was noisy too, instantly solved by reverting to what Triumph intended. Note that Kenlowe have quietly dropped the fuel and BHP savings claims from their advertising.  On cars like ours they're a marketed novelty, but a bit like hi-torque starters theyre totally unnecessary on a normally maintained car.


'68 Mk1 Vitesse convertible boneshaker, and a somewhat more economical '89 998cc A series powered Metro.
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glang
December 21, 2017, 2:26pm Report to Moderator

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I just cant see how the original six blade motor driven fan turning at <1000rpm a couple of inches away from the rad can cool as much as my directly mounted 8 high efficiency bladed Kenlowe spinning at 3000+ rpm. Also Kenlowe dont produce for the public now so they have no advertising.....
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bxbodger
December 21, 2017, 3:10pm Report to Moderator

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The mechanical fan does something that's essential on a Vitesse that the kenlowe, or any other electrical fan for that matter, can't do, and that's to keep the underbonnet temperature down to a constant steady level. It's not about what air it pulls through the rad, the rad cools by radiation, as in the name, and a fan  isn't really that essential for  that. It's more about the actual ambient temp around the float bowls and fuel pump. Other people's experiences may be different, but I found that fuel vapourisation and lumpy running/stalling in heavy drive to work stop-start queuing traffic was a constant pain in the butt, even in the winter, until I junked the kenlowe and reverted to standard.




'68 Mk1 Vitesse convertible boneshaker, and a somewhat more economical '89 998cc A series powered Metro.
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glang
December 21, 2017, 8:12pm Report to Moderator

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I think youre getting a bit mixed up as, although its called a radiator, the vast majority of the heat loss is by convection as the air passing through it gains temperature so removing heat from the cooling water. Thus the more air the greater the cooling and it doesnt matter what pushes it as long as theres sufficient mass flow and as an additional benefit more flow will help keep down the underbonnet temperature as well.
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69vitesse
December 22, 2017, 1:08am Report to Moderator

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Quoted from glang
I think youre getting a bit mixed up as, although its called a radiator, the vast majority of the heat loss is by convection as the air passing through it gains temperature so removing heat from the cooling water. Thus the more air the greater the cooling and it doesnt matter what pushes it as long as theres sufficient mass flow and as an additional benefit more flow will help keep down the underbonnet temperature as well.




Actually, bxdodger is quite right.

Like nearly all older designs, the aerodynamics of the Vitesse, and GT6, the rounded under front apron, cause a high pressure area under the front of the car that tends to trap hot air inside the engine bay. See the bonnet louvres and gills on so many period cars to try and refuse under bonnet temperatures.
Moderns try and keep air from running down the front apron and under the car with an air dam so as to create a low pressure area that stops the nose lifting at speed, and also improves the efficiency of the cooling system by drawing hot air out of the engine bay.

A example?

Take the also designed by Michellotti Vitesse's very close half brother, the BMW 2002. BMW put a lot of wind tunnel development into the car once they went down the hot saloon route with the car and if you look at the front apron, you will see a small lip spoiler added to the bottom of the apron to stop lift by generating low pressure.

So yes, the design does need a steady fan provided flow of air into the engine bay to push out the jhot air that tends to be trapped in there.
Notice how hot a Triumph bonnet is after a run vs most moderns that remain almost cold to the touch.
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nang
December 22, 2017, 3:19am Report to Moderator

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FWIW all Australian and New Zealand 2500 S's were fitted with additional  Kenlowe fans, fitted in the front of the radiator in the factory. They were controlled by a temp switch on top of the motor. No doubt fitted as we were considered as 'tropical' countries. I've owned 2  S's  over the last few years and never did the fans come on or the cars overheat.
Tony.


If all else fails-Read the Instructions! ��Wairoa
New Zealand

1976 2500TC (converted to S spec) owned since 1998.

1999 BMW 2800 cc Z3 Convertible.
 
2003 BMW 525i Touring.
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glang
December 22, 2017, 8:27am Report to Moderator

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Yes the aerodynamics of these cars maybe suspect but the fan is for cooling when stationary or going very slowly so we cant blame that for any overheating under those operating conditions. Obviously if the engine bay is 'closed in' hot air will have a problem getting out but that will be the same for whatever type of fan is used and it would certainly be interesting to see the difference in stationary cooling with the bonnet open and closed.....
And Tony as youve found luckily the later 2000/2500 was designed for the six engine from the start rather than a 1200 four pot like the Vitesse/GT6 so there was more radiator space available
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timbancroft61
December 22, 2017, 9:35am Report to Moderator

Still around!
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After years of suffering from high under bonnet temps and subsequent high interior temps in my GT6, I have found the best solution has been to fit a VW Golf rad and associated piping and a header tank mounted on the bulkhead, as Roy Lacey's design. Works fantastically well. I think the surface area of the rad plus the increase in coolant capacity has been the cure.

My Saloon never runs hot, this being due to having a radiator that has a decent surface area. The louvres I had put into the bonnet knocked coolant temps down by 5 degrees C.

Both cars have Pacet fans that are controlled by a rad switch let into the bottom tank, the GT6 having a override switch.

Because of these cures, both cars run very well with no signs of poor running.


Club Triumph Round Britain Reliability Run (Part of the organising team, what a team)!
RBRR is the best car event in the UK, not probably, it is!

1970 GT6 Mk.2: Royal Blue 6 RBRRs (98, 00,02,04,06 & 10), 2 10CRs (03 & 07). 2 HCRs 1 LCC, lots of Autosolos and numerous track days. Bought in 1983, crikey where did the time go! Now running the Roy Lacey cooling system!

1969 2.5Pi Mk.1: Slate Grey 3 10CRs (05,09 & 15), 3 RBRRs (08, 12 & 16), 3 HCRs, 2 LCCs. A few alloy panels, does need the pi kit fitting. Bought April '04. Needs paint! Just fitted some new 7J Minilites-not copies!

1967 Spitfire mk2: Wedgewood Blue. Bought November 2010. Almost seems civilised. Car has done a RBRR (Dave Picton 2010). Blimey, could be on the road soon!
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JohnD
December 22, 2017, 10:10am Report to Moderator


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Quoted from 69vitesse

Like nearly all older designs, the aerodynamics of the Vitesse, and GT6, the rounded under front apron, cause a high pressure area under the front of the car that tends to trap hot air inside the engine bay. See the bonnet louvres and gills on so many period cars to try and refuse under bonnet temperatures.
Moderns try and keep air from running down the front apron and under the car with an air dam so as to create a low pressure area that stops the nose lifting at speed, and also improves the efficiency of the cooling system by drawing hot air out of the engine bay.

A example?

Take the also designed by Michellotti Vitesse's very close half brother, the BMW 2002. BMW put a lot of wind tunnel development into the car once they went down the hot saloon route with the car and if you look at the front apron, you will see a small lip spoiler added to the bottom of the apron to stop lift by generating low pressure.

So yes, the design does need a steady fan provided flow of air into the engine bay to push out the jhot air that tends to be trapped in there.
Notice how hot a Triumph bonnet is after a run vs most moderns that remain almost cold to the touch.


This deserves a whole new thread, but a lip spoiler doesn't produce los pressure, but high!

There is a 'static point' on the front of a moving object, for a flat front one like a Herald/Vitesse or a 2002, its a static area, where pressure is high because flow is low (Bernouille).   A lip below that point/area experiences the raised pressure, and reduces lift.    It will also direct flow away from below the vehicle, reducing flow underneath, increasing velocity and reducing pressure (Bernouille, again).

So a lip in creases pressure in front and reduces underneath.    If that improves extraction fro the engine e bay, I can't say, except that louvres are useless!
John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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69vitesse
December 22, 2017, 11:48am Report to Moderator

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Yes John, when you examine the air pressures as an entirety, but the primary purpose is to stop air going down under the planing bow and lifting the nose.
A very interesting little article that explains in detail the issues with the very similar BMW 2002 and other period cars. The nose design really was awful!

As you note, a coraally  of the lip spoiler is you increase air pressure around the front of the cars nose… its a win-win. More air into the rad thanks to high pressure, and low pressure under the car also improving cooling.
'Aerodynamics weren't really understood in the 50's and 60's, a curved apron is going to cut through the air, nest pas?
See the Lambourghini Miura that had a rather famous habit of trying to take off as the high speeds it could achieve built up a huge high pressure bubble lifting the nose.

But with factory and race team design work done on a very similar body, its well worth examining the fruits of their wind tunnel labours


http://www.2002tii.org/kb/270
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JohnD
December 22, 2017, 1:29pm Report to Moderator


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Trying to clarify my point:

The spoiler lip will not increase pressure in the static area.    It uses that high pressure by allowing it to bear on the upper surface of the lip, to produce a downforce.

Flow in the static area is stalled - more pressure won't push more into the radiator.

Which race team's aero work do you refer to?  I'd love to see it!
I've wanted to do some aero on TRiumphs, becasue as you say, manufacturers in those days didn't do any.
The tunnel at MIRA is sometimes available, but never at less than hundred of pounds an hour.

Of course, the leaders in F1 now don't biother with wind tunnels - its all done in CFD, Computational Flow Dynamics, and inside a computer!
John


Serial Vitesse racer.

Old Blue.  1995-2001
Silverback. 2001-2007
SofS. 2007 - to date.

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daver clasper
December 22, 2017, 1:45pm Report to Moderator
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Some of my own "Laymans" thoughts for what their worth.

Iv'e not seen any comments regarding overheating/running hot on the gauge in any road tests of the time when these cars were new/er and would have had healthier cooling systems than many current classics of today (though of course the ambient temp may well have been average on the test days).

Was there any hearsay around at the time these cars were everyday (but not too old runners) about them being prone to overheating?.
Lots of them would have likely to have been stuck in say holiday jams on hot days at some point.

On the London to Brighton run for mainly 60's/70's classics a few years ago an a fairly warm day, quite a few cars were arriving and then parked with bonnets up and electric fans still running (boy was some heat coming off those engines), which I surmised may have been down to age old blockage in rads/flow channels from when these cars may have been neglected bangers.

So, I'm wondering how good a base point some current classics will have when assessing this issue that some have

Cheers, Dave
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69vitesse
December 22, 2017, 4:21pm Report to Moderator

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69vitesse
December 22, 2017, 4:32pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from daver clasper
Some of my own "Laymans" thoughts for what their worth.

Iv'e not seen any comments regarding overheating/running hot on the gauge in any road tests of the time when these cars were new/er and would have had healthier cooling systems than many current classics of today (though of course the ambient temp may well have been average on the test days).

Was there any hearsay around at the time these cars were everyday (but not too old runners) about them being prone to overheating?.
Lots of them would have likely to have been stuck in say holiday jams on hot days at some point.  




Well, we were a Triumph family back in the day when you could buy Triumphs new.
Between the old man, me and my brother…

Toledo, Dolomite 1850, Dolomite Sprint, 2500pi, Herald 1200, Herald 13/60, GT6.

Other than my Sprint which was a law onto itself, none of them were particularly problematic with overheating, certainly no worse than any contemporary.

The Sprint? That managed to overheat when it was -13 C outside!
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daver clasper
December 23, 2017, 7:32pm Report to Moderator
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Seems about getting the basics right, I guess.

Dave
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69vitesse
December 24, 2017, 12:40am Report to Moderator

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The Kamei front spoiler was tested by the EPA in the USA back in the oil crisis days in a wind tunnel and the Kamei figures confirmed.

http://www.bmw-02-club.de/club/_zubehor/_z-spoiler.htm
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