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Triumph Torque  /  Spitfire/GT6  /  So its blown another head gasket...
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 4:12pm
Come to the conclusion my engine problems must be another blown cylinder head gasket. Im still unable to clear the smoke, i drained the fuel today and put a gallon of optimax in it, managed to clear the smoke on idle but there is still smoke with a hint of blue but mostly black on acceleration. when i lean it out to clear it the engine becomes guttless.

So gasket no 2 is gone, this one a propper payen. Gonna give it one last shot. Then i think the old head will have to go on if it doesnt work as the block must be slightly warped and i cant afford to have it decked.
Posted by: Tom2000, October 17, 2007, 4:14pm; Reply: 1
bummer sorry to hear that
Posted by: Bobbyspit, October 17, 2007, 4:26pm; Reply: 2
Where did it blow from last time?
Rob
Posted by: GT6Steve, October 17, 2007, 4:27pm; Reply: 3
Matt, it sounds odd that it would blow a head gasket at all, let alone a new Payen.  A couple thoughts,
once, after severely shaving a head I found the head studs to be just ever so too long.  They torqued fine but were just enough out of thread to not sqeeze the head adequately.  Silly thing but it took a few tries to spot it.

I'm not going to even discuss checking the block and head for flatness because I'm sure you know about that.  BUT, If it's your block that's warped slightly you can clean it up with careful strokes of a long file.  I've got a sixteen inch second cut file that works a treat.

Next, are your stud holes in the block countersunk?  Could you be pulling a thread and having a shoulder around the stud interfering with proper settlement.

Cracks?

Are you leaking any oil around the back of the head?

Finally, is this a recessed block?  Could the recesses be too shallow?

Good Luck, hope you resolve it...
Posted by: thescrapman, October 17, 2007, 4:44pm; Reply: 4
Matt

Are you absolutely sure the gasket has failed??

Your last description sounds like a mixture or timing related issue not a HG failure.

Cheers

Colin
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 4:50pm; Reply: 5
Timing is spot on, and i dont seem to be able to clear the smoke through the rev range.

I've tried everything i can think off anyone any other suggestion.


Steve: The block is skimmed so im sure its flat, which is why im thinking the block might be warped slightly.


I dunno maybe i will heat the engine up and try and torque the head down more. It still doesnt explain the consistant smoke out the rocker cover breather.
Posted by: toomanyprojects, October 17, 2007, 5:17pm; Reply: 6
That description could also be piston rings couldn't it???

That would over pressurise you crank case giving over pressure in the rocker and cause blue smoke wouldn't it????

Don't mean to be too negative, just thinking of the possibilities....
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 5:31pm; Reply: 7
Just did a compresion check on all cylinders

1: 121 psi
2: 120 psi
3: 121 psi
4: 122 psi

so theres no problems there then thinkin ive gotta look deaper.
Posted by: ferny, October 17, 2007, 5:33pm; Reply: 8
Why would the HG go so quickly? You've not done many miles with it have you? Has your water level actually moved at all?
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 5:37pm; Reply: 9
water level is the same as i topped it up 5 weeks ago.

oil level is fine

and its got fresh optimax in the tank.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 5:38pm; Reply: 10
Quoted from toomanyprojects
That description could also be piston rings couldn't it???

That would over pressurise you crank case giving over pressure in the rocker and cause blue smoke wouldn't it????

Don't mean to be too negative, just thinking of the possibilities....


Piston rings would give constant blue smoke wouldnt it?

Also would affect the compression
Posted by: toomanyprojects, October 17, 2007, 5:49pm; Reply: 11
With those compression readings I don't think it can be rings....

Not 100% sure how the symptoms would be, I know that one of the first thing you get is over pressure in the crank case, which makes you blow a fine oil spray out of any breathers, that will give blue smoke in itself as the breather goes to the inlet I guess.

If it's mild it will probably get better as the engine warms up, but worse as the throttle opens. It doesn't take much oil to make a lot of smoke so "burning oil" doesn't always give a noticable oil loss.

Other wise there's valve stems/stem seals. They would give blue smoke but not affect compression. That's normally a lot worse on start up/cold...

P.S. of course, I could be talking out of my bottom, but it makes sense to me...
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 6:01pm; Reply: 12
Cylinder head has brand new valve guides and valves, so its not going to be oil going down the valves.

triumph engines dont use valve stem seals, and i dont know any which fit.


Rocker oil feed? could this be causin too much oil up there
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 13
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Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 14
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 7:00pm; Reply: 15
head was given a 40 thou skim , i was surprised aswell by the even-ness had to keep checking.

if the compresion was down on all cylinders though it would be a bit wierd wouldnt it?

that would suggest either all cylinders in the gasket blown or all the piston rings went at once.


Cant help thinking that the lack in vacum in the inlet manifold has something to do with this.
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 16
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Posted by: Richard B, October 17, 2007, 8:04pm; Reply: 17
Quoted Text
Rocker oil feed? could this be causin too much oil up there

If you've got one of those on a 4 pot without mods you will definitely have problems.

Davesideways did some mods involving; blocking the gallery and fitting a restrictor to the bolt (2mm? - 3mm?) when he used a Rocker Oil Feed.

I'd say rip it off and try it without.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 8:11pm; Reply: 18
might be a stupid question but why with the throttle open fully?
Posted by: Nick Jones, October 17, 2007, 8:11pm; Reply: 19
Matt,

If your water level is unchanged after 5 weeks and considerable static running then the water you see coming out of the exhaust is not the engine 'burning' its coolant is it?!

I take it the car is still not being driven.  Are you sure that this 'smoke' you see is not just normal condensation and steam?  Burning petrol produces a nearly equal amount of water, which leaves the exhaust as steam.  When the car is driven or if the surrounding air is warm and dry enough this dissipates before condensing but, if you are not able to put enough heat into the exhaust system, which seems quite likely as you have no way of putting the engine under realistic load, by the time it exits the tailpipe the exhaust will be cooled to the point where some of this steam is visible and the tailpipe itself will be wet.  This will be especially noticeable when air temperatures are quite low and humidity is high - like now.  Slightly rich running will also give lower exhaust temps and cooler running making it worse/more noticeable.

As nothing else really seems to point to HGF, I would be inclined to wait until the car can be driven a reasonable distance before condemning the gasket.

Some other thoughts:

Lean running at idle going rich at wider throttle is often a sign of an (fairly small) inlet manifold air leak - it will be hard to get the idle speed down under these conditions.

Did you do the compression test with the throttle open or closed?  A closed throttle test will give lower readings than an open throttle test.

If you have unrestricted external oil feed this is enough to cause oil burning, new guides or not! Pinto valve stem seals can be used provided you have single valve springs - they are a very tight fit.  They are only needed on the inlets.

Warped block is very unlikely - normally give problems in the areas immediately between the cylinders where there are no water ways so will not cause you problems.

My personal opinion is there there is probably no problem at all.

Nick
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 20
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 17, 2007, 9:16pm; Reply: 21
ah ok.

That'll prob be why my readings are lower, i'll check again tomorrow.

What you are saying nick makes sense in that a small air leak. The fact that im struggling for vacum in the engine for the megajolt and the brake servo would suggest the same also.

So should i ditch the rocker oil feed aswell???
Posted by: MissSpentYouth, October 17, 2007, 9:27pm; Reply: 22
Hi, Doesn't sound like a head gasket to me if your coolant level is OK after 5 weeks. Blue smoke is oil being burnt in your engine, Black smoke excessive fuel and white smoke water. With it being a bit colder now you can expect a bit of white smoke especially when the engine is cold. Be careful about disconnecting your external oil feed to the rocker shaft as often this is fitted in conjunction with a grub screw in the head to block off the original oil feed. By all means try it to see if it cures your problem but don't leave it disconnected unless you know you don't have this grub screw.

Sorry to say but what about a generally warn engine, low on compression and blue smoke fits with this and also excessive crankcase pressure ... this would give you low inlet manifold pressure too. Have you recently taken it for a blast with low oil level in the sump and suffered a bit of oil starvation whilst cornering ?
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 18, 2007, 8:43am; Reply: 23
Just a thought, my car definatly doesnt have the grub screw which could create too much oil.
Posted by: JonB67, October 18, 2007, 10:07am; Reply: 24
Matt,

When i first put the external rocker feed on mine, it smoked, and when i took it off it stopped.

That's when i started playing around with restricting it - but i never blocked the oilway in the head, so in the end i just took it off.

I know that's nothing that hasn't been said above - but i does reinforce the point as it happened to me!

Jon
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 18, 2007, 5:21pm; Reply: 25
tomorrow i will remove the oil feed.

also thinking i have an air leak somewhere in the inlet manifold, maybe porting it i hit a crack in the casting or something, might pick up one from chic tomorrow to test it.
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 26
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 18, 2007, 6:54pm; Reply: 27
problem is i cant see anything thats wrong with it cant see any cracks or anything,  but loss of vacum and wierd carb readings mean it should be some kinda leak.
Posted by: GT6 Mike, October 18, 2007, 8:59pm; Reply: 28
Mattius

How are you measuring a loss of vacum

What are the wierd carb readings

On most engines you will get a small amount of oil vapour from the engine breather.

Agree with some of the other responses, does'nt sound like head gasket to me. You mention that the oil and water level has'nt changed in the last 5 weeks, how many miles has it covered ?

When you re-check your compressions do it dry first then re-test with a couple of squirts oil in the bore (all with throttle wide open). Similar readings will indicate bore / rings are ok - Big difference could indicate bore / ring wear.
Posted by: rhodes, October 19, 2007, 10:13am; Reply: 29
I have one of those oil feed pipes to the rocker gear and I have no trouble at all with blue or white smoke.  However, I have fitted oil seals on the inlet valves.  My knowledge is restricted to Spifire and old Mini engines, so I tried fitting Mini seals to the Spitfire.  The Mini ones hook into a groove at the top of the guides and although there are no grooves on the Spitfire guides, the seals seem to stay put.

I have a 1300 head on a 1500 block giving a CR of about 10:1.  The pressure reading on the Gunson gauge (with throttle open of course) is very high right at the top of the green band.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 19, 2007, 5:20pm; Reply: 30
Right ok so today i had a productive day, not happy with my inlet manifold at all so whilst up a chics bought a new one (2nd hand) fitted it today and changed the needles to AAQ blocked off all the vacum take offs. And disconnected the rocker oil feed.

Car runs a lot better engine wise i.e. it doesnt die on lift off anymore.

however it is still smoking but im thinking this is just oil burning off in places it shouldnt have been in the first place as it coughs and splutters then clears then coughs and splutters again and smokes.

how long will it take oil to burn off in the chambers?
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 31
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Posted by: GT6 Mike, October 20, 2007, 7:49am; Reply: 32
Agree with Dave, a small amount of oil won't hang around long. If it's not running smoothly, you will not have complete combustion this will lead to smoke. There could be a number of reasons for this. Run through the checks that have been suggested in this thread - re-check your compressions, they are low but this may have been due to how you checked them. You need to establish that the basic engine is ok, you can then start looking at air leaks, ignition, fueling etc.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 20, 2007, 2:22pm; Reply: 33
Right re-checked the compressions again with throttle open.

1. 150psi
2. 160psi
3. 180psi
4. 170psi


slight blow at the front??

all of those values are green on my gunsen gauge. which should mean they ok
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 20, 2007, 3:32pm; Reply: 34
Ok so having had another long play with everything in the engine i am now of the opinion it is definatly the oil. reasons for this are:

i) Took the rocker gear off to re torque down the head whilst there cleared all oil from the rocker gear. When the engine re-started it was clear. then 5 mins later smoke back.

ii) Steam/smoke is coming up from the pushrod holes

iii) Consistancy of the oil looks too thin very very clear.
Posted by: Spitfire1500, October 20, 2007, 4:50pm; Reply: 35
It's probably not much help, but how is the oil filter and how old is the oil?

Might be a good idea to swap both and see what happens.

Just a thought.

David
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 20, 2007, 4:56pm; Reply: 36
oil filter is 4 months old and the engine has hardly been run in those months
same for the oil.

it is valvoline vr1 20-50 but im not happy with the viscosity of it so will try some normal 20/50
Posted by: ferny, October 20, 2007, 7:28pm; Reply: 37
Possibly diluted by petrol? 150-180 is a big jump.

I'm jsut guessing here.
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 38
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Posted by: GT6Steve, October 21, 2007, 12:13am; Reply: 39
Matt,
May I suggest that you get it roadworthy and then drive the living p*ss out of it for a while and then reevaluate?  It seems you're working yourself up and it may all be fine when on the road a while.  If there's a serious concern it'll show itself readily enough when on the road.  Until then, don't fret Mon....
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 40
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Posted by: GT6Steve, October 21, 2007, 1:30am; Reply: 41
Quoted from davesideways
Agree, its just an engine, two to a penny, give it hell!

Should have kept that motor from Bowlers car, 1300 small crank, unground!


OhMyGawd, Yes!
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 21, 2007, 9:20am; Reply: 42
yeah i been kicking myself over that but it was the right decision for lots of reasons. mainly that the car would not be eligeable for classic hill climbs with a different engine than it was made with. Mind you not sure if the ignition will pass either. Also the money that was made from the engine has allowed me to continue the rebuild of this one.

the car cant be driven on the road because it is too smokey i would get pulled in an instant. Wet compression test give almost exactly the same result there was small variences accross all but too nominal to be read on the gauge.
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 43
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 21, 2007, 3:17pm; Reply: 44
right oil is changed, it made a slight improvement.

but i think i might have found something, one of my carb jets isnt working correctly it aint giving enough fuel making the back carb stutter when you push its throttle alone. However on start up when there has been time for the jet to work properly there is no smoke till the jet starts to struggle.

could this be the cause of all my problems?

heres a vid so you can see the smoke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlVePLBeo50
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 45
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Posted by: C Mallock, October 23, 2007, 3:09pm; Reply: 46
Does not sound clean at all, do you have a branched manafold on it? If so are all the pipes hot?
What do your plugs look like?
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 47
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 23, 2007, 5:41pm; Reply: 48
Sorry forgot to mention after that video was taken i discovered the spare plugs i was trying were knackered, new ones in and it sounds better. Will let you know how i get on with the new jets.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 25, 2007, 10:00pm; Reply: 49
new carb jets fitted today, although ran out of petrol so cant test it, is it theoretical that this could be causing it?
Posted by: Spitfire1500, October 26, 2007, 7:40am; Reply: 50
Get the old jerry can out and see what happens I say :)

Hopefully your engine woes will disappear now, do let us know!

David
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 26, 2007, 9:59am; Reply: 51
thats me completely stumped, looks like im gonna have to pay to have the engine rebuilt its not smoking on idle now but on acceleration it plumes smoke.
Posted by: Spitfire1500, October 26, 2007, 10:02am; Reply: 52
How strange  :-/

Will Chic be able to help with your problem at all? Maybe he could swap the engine, see if that helps, swap carburettors, etc. whilst having a look at your engine, just general troubleshooting say?

Just a few suggestions.

David
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 26, 2007, 10:22am; Reply: 53
here ya go, think i have every colour of smoke in here@

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr7_G4YJ4Ko

blue, black and white! whoohooo its f**ked!

vid taken with new bullet cam setup but no mic yet
Posted by: Spitfire1500, October 26, 2007, 10:25am; Reply: 54
Add some Redex and you can join the red arrows ;)

David
Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 26, 2007, 10:28am; Reply: 55
why not swap the head, chances are you could have over ported yours, was it smoking before you did head work?
Posted by: GT6boy, October 26, 2007, 11:47am; Reply: 56
Quoted from Spitfire1500
Add some Redex and you can join the red arrows ;)

David


LOL :D

"Smoke-on Red Leader, and Go!"
Posted by: Spitfire1500, October 26, 2007, 12:27pm; Reply: 57
LOL hehehe ;D
Posted by: Mac, October 26, 2007, 12:47pm; Reply: 58
I reckon it's chuckin oil down the valve guides

You wrote: Took the rocker gear off to re torque down the head whilst there cleared all oil from the rocker gear. When the engine re-started it was clear. then 5 mins later smoke back.

Ways oil can get into the combustion chamber:
past rings
down the valve guides
blown gasket or cracked head

If it was rings it'd still smoke after you drained the oil off the head/rockers. It didn't smoke for 5 mins because there wasn't enough oil up there to get down the guide/s, 5 mins later oil built up and started to smoke agin.

I know, new valves and guides, I still reckon it's that.
You said you had the external rocker feed off but I reckon it's getting enough oil up there anyway as stock and it's getting down one or more guides

You can try
Put seals on valve guides (Ford?)
Check valve-guide play
Gonna have to have the head off fer both o them, that way you can check the chambers fer cracks too with some coolant or parafin

Cracked head/gasket would more likely be water, blowback in rad etc.
Posted by: GT6 Mike, October 26, 2007, 4:09pm; Reply: 59
Where does your breather go to from the rocker cover ?

Is it blocked ?

Does it smoke from the exhaust with the rocker cover cap off ?
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 26, 2007, 4:25pm; Reply: 60
rocker breather goes to the catch can, with the cap off it still smokes.
Posted by: GT6boy, October 26, 2007, 4:49pm; Reply: 61
Splendid video Matt. My personal experiance is I usually go to great lengths to get around doing something 'the right way', thinking I can save time and effort, then usually spend more time, resource and energy in the process. 9 times out of 10, I would be better just doing it as per the book or more knowledgable peoples opinions.
If it were mine, I would go back to basics, whip the head off and see whats what.
Best of luck. :)  
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 26, 2007, 4:57pm; Reply: 62
think its past that, think its time it went to a specialist and sorted once and for all.
Posted by: GT6boy, October 26, 2007, 6:44pm; Reply: 63
A shame you're so far away, i'd love to give it a once over before you commit to more money.  Oh well.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 26, 2007, 7:02pm; Reply: 64
thanks. the way i see it, i could spend a fortune and already have done and it will take me lots of time now im working. Car needs painted before the winter so i need it running.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 26, 2007, 9:17pm; Reply: 65
im totally gutted to have to pay someone to fix it but im at the end of my tether its just seeming like an even bigger money pit at the moment than it ever was.
Posted by: GT6boy, October 27, 2007, 11:27am; Reply: 66
Shut the garage door on it and have a weekend off. In other words- get bladdered and have a break from it.  ;)
Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 27, 2007, 4:02pm; Reply: 67
i really think you would most probably find that its is the head leaking from being over ported or from the larger valves being put in and causing head damage, i know you probably dont want to hear that as i expect you have done lots of work on it etc.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 27, 2007, 4:36pm; Reply: 68
Quoted from JoshB
i really think you would most probably find that its is the head leaking from being over ported or from the larger valves being put in and causing head damage, i know you probably dont want to hear that as i expect you have done lots of work on it etc.


your right i wouldnt like to hear that this head owes me a lot of money and time.

Valves are TT race valves sure they are big but they shouldnt damage the head.

Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 27, 2007, 5:18pm; Reply: 69
i cant stand to be beaten think i'll rip the head off tomorrow have a look, what should i be lookin for?
Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 27, 2007, 5:53pm; Reply: 70
its when the inserts are put in that can crack the head between the inlet and ex, you may not see anything obvious, , it may be overporting is lead to cracking or pourosity, there isnt much metal befor you get to the water jacket in the ports, maybe look closely at the cylinders that had lowest psi
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 27, 2007, 6:03pm; Reply: 71
it doesnt have inserts
Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 27, 2007, 6:11pm; Reply: 72
valve seats
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 73
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Posted by: MissSpentYouth, October 27, 2007, 6:37pm; Reply: 74
Hi there I would go for valve guide seals as well the least cost option and you dont need to remove the head either I read somewhere that you can just turn the engine till the piston is at bottom dead center remove the spark plug. Then feed a length of rope into the combustion center leaving a length outside to pull it later then turn the engine back up to TDC. Then with the aid of a heavy friend and some pliers or some mechanical contraption you can push down the valve spring cap and remove the collects fit the seal with some lock tight and reverse the procedure. You only need to do the inlet valves. Not tried it myself but seems feasible. having said that if it is your valve guides then they must be well shot to produce so much smoke.
Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 27, 2007, 6:48pm; Reply: 75
you can pressure test the water side by fitting a pump to the water overflow bottle pipe ( dont go over 20psi or you may pop the radiator),  see what happens.... i used an electric tyre pump, it should maintain pressure when checked after 10 mins or so, maybe take the plugs out and listen for hissing etc,   I am not sure it would be valve stems i expect they are new,, unless they are the wrong ones or something..
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 76
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Posted by: lordleonusa, October 27, 2007, 9:29pm; Reply: 77
No-one asked if you are using old, pre-used head studs, if so, they may not be torquing the head down evenly, because they stretch.

If you still have that rocker oil feed hose, then get rid of it.
It diverts too much oil away from the main galleries to the rocker gear, and a rocker shaft is easier and cheaper to replace than main bearins etc.

There is nothing wrong with the toilet tune valves, but I would not recommend any kind of valve stem seals, they merely reduce lubrication to the valve stems, and if you have double valve springs, they will just get pulled off and cause more problems.

L
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 11:15am; Reply: 78
it doesnt have the rocker oil feed i removed it.

I am using old head studs as i am unable to find new ones which are strong enough all the new ones i found are crap.

im wandering if the guides are pish, although i bought them from chic so they should be good. I used steel maybe i should have gone for brass.
Thinking about it i didnt put the spacers in to the rocker gear cause the swipe of the rockers was good when checked with engineers blue.
Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 28, 2007, 12:02pm; Reply: 79
as long as you can tq the head old studs are fine, steel guides should be fine, silicon bronze guides (not brass) are better, if your guides were new they wont have worn just from a few start ups, unless somethink very wrong has happened when the valve seats were put in, using rocker spacers between the rocker gear is better than the springs, but again that wont cause crazy guide wear, its the head thats almost certainly chuffed Matt,
Posted by: C Mallock, October 28, 2007, 12:12pm; Reply: 80
Looking at the vid i noticed something.
Does your car use brake fluid? A friend of mine had a Pinto powered Mk1 Cortina with was doing the same as yours, turned out to be a problem with the remote brake servo letting brake fluid into the manifold. might be worth disconnecting it for a while.
Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 28, 2007, 12:20pm; Reply: 81
good point mr Mallock
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 12:24pm; Reply: 82
yeap good point except in the vid the servo isnt connected doh!

i'll pull the head in a few hours once the hangover has subsided see what i can find, fingers crossed its a blown gasket again although i doubt it.

in which case i still have the original head, i'll try and find the bits and pieces for it and refit that to get it through its mot and pick up another head and start machining head no.2
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 3:08pm; Reply: 83
Help urgent before i release the head i noticed something whilst i have the exhaust and inlet manifolds off, i have oil bubling out the manifold side of the head gasket, could this mean its not torqued down enough???

or should i just whap the head off now i have it this far appart?
Posted by: GT6Steve, October 28, 2007, 3:26pm; Reply: 84
At this stage I'd finish pulling it and give everything a butchers.  Thoroughly clean and fit a new Payen.  Maybe even have your machinists look it over as well...
Posted by: GT6boy, October 28, 2007, 3:40pm; Reply: 85
Keep going Matt, whip that little baby off and get some photos! Good luck. :)
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 3:51pm; Reply: 86
Well took the head off



head gasket looks fine



appart from this wee bit where it has gone into one of the casting holes

but its not torn and was sealed.

cylinder head looks good appart from this


the two middle exhaust ports are dry


but yet the two on either side are wet
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 4:07pm; Reply: 87
cylinder head doesnt look too pretty either




judging by the look of the chambers im saying my guides arent happy, letting oil down.
Posted by: GT6Steve, October 28, 2007, 4:15pm; Reply: 88
Realizing it hasn't run much, the piston tops on 1 & 4 don't look too burned.  Those water holes seem very closed to the seal ring but the gasket doesn't look too bad.  What's in the 1 & 4 exhaust ports?  Oil or water?  Hard to tell, i know...
Posted by: GT6boy, October 28, 2007, 4:34pm; Reply: 89
Be interesting to see the exhaust valve stems as a comparison? Perhaps a belt and braces exercise to check the valve stem diameters for wear? Presuming the Toilet tune valves are all the same stem size and have not at some point been mixed with another valve size?

Well done Matt, your making good progress. :)
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 4:51pm; Reply: 90
10 points to those who said vale guides.

Exhaust valves mainly




horrid exhaust ports

Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 5:04pm; Reply: 91
Just had the vernier callipers out, the valves are all within 0.1mm of each other, the guides are varying in  up to .4mm!!!!
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 92
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Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 93
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Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 94
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Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 28, 2007, 5:39pm; Reply: 95
even with baggy guides its alot of smoke, as dave says, you were using a recessed gasket yes? that could cause all sorts of interesting things happening between cylinders if not using a non-recessed gasket on a recessed block.
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 96
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 5:55pm; Reply: 97
yeah it was definatley a recessed gasket. The guides were replaced with steel ones when i did the head, brand new steel still sealed in packet.

gasket doesnt look like there was a blow head does though.

So whats the cure, new bronze guides i take it, and i'll try a different machine shop this time. New head gasket make sure its recessed gasket payen of course.

i knew about the exhaust gasket and already have a new one sat here but it was the only one they had in stock when i was changing the inlet manifold last week so bought it to just see if i could clear the smoke.


Also with regards to guides are anyone cheaper than moss with the 20% off tonight?

Should i order the spacers for the rockers even though the swipe looks ok? i skimmed 40 thou of the head and each shim is 40 thou so would make sense wouldnt it
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 5:58pm; Reply: 98
Quoted from davesideways
Agree, I pulled a head off a motor a while back, you could wiggle the valves about 10mm, 5mm each way but there was no real smoke, bar a little on over-run...

Also the exhaust valve ports should be under pressure, not suction...I'd expect worn inlets to cause constant smoke?


i have a mixture of worn inlet and exhausts by the looks of the exhaust valves the oil has been running all the way down them

Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 28, 2007, 5:59pm; Reply: 99
matt check the ex ports for over porting, like dave i have driven really nailed motors with shagged guides  and tones of shite on the ex valves and not had the smoke you video'd. the ex ports a quite thin before you get to galleries,
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 6:02pm; Reply: 100
how can i check for over porting?? i didnt port the head that much inside the valves.

my dad is saying line the exhaust ports with araldite just to make sure, plausable? he said he used to do it all the time with mini heads.
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 101
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Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 102
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Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 103
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 6:33pm; Reply: 104
looking again at the head it does appear to have not had the gasket seated properly between one and 2, between 3 and 4 there is no black staining but yet between 1 and 2 there is.

The only part of the head that any serious material was removed was to fit the larger valves, that area in the head is thick with metal so shouldnt be porus round there.


Is the casting hole your talking about the one that made the dent in my gasket? how should it be filled? araldite putty then sanded flat?
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 105
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 7:51pm; Reply: 106
Top of the head



This is 1->2



This is 3->4



There is a clear gap between 3 and 4 but nothing between 1 and 2. but the gasket is intact, i can only assume it wasnt torqued down enough at the front although i did them up to 100ftlbs which is over what the manual states.
Posted by: Nick Moore, October 28, 2007, 8:17pm; Reply: 107
Get the machine shop to check the head for flatness, especially between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4. Better still, get them to skim it slightly - less than a thou - just to be sure.

As for the guides, ask about 'K-lining', where they ream out the existing guides and fit inserts. They're cheaper than new guides, and I've never heard of one failing.

Like the wee grooves in the head! Somander Singh's marvellous combustion-enhancers?
Posted by: MissSpentYouth, October 28, 2007, 8:22pm; Reply: 108
Hi there, If you fitted new guides when you did the head and they were the correct size then I don't think this is your problem and it would be the inlet guides that cause problem in any case as they are under vacuum. Your comment about about oil bubbling out from the head gasket on the manifold side I think is the issue. If it was bubbling outwards then likely bubbling inwards also into the nearest combustion chamber hence the smoke. Check that your block is nice and flat with a good steel rule and feeler gauge, ditto the head. check the threads on your studs are in good shape. I am sure that you must have followed the correct sequence for torquing it down from the inside out. Did you re-torque after 500 miles ? Is your oil pressure OK when cold ie not to high if to high it may have stressed the gasket but unlikely. might have a defective oil pressure relief valve. Is your torque wrench OK ? likely you know what sort of torque to apply to the head does that match your wrench ? Has it overheated since you did the head enough to damage the gasket ? If you did have a significant blow between cylinders then that would have shown up on your compression test but cant see how that would have resulted in smoke. Hope this helps.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 8:29pm; Reply: 109
Quoted from Nick Moore
Get the machine shop to check the head for flatness, especially between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4. Better still, get them to skim it slightly - less than a thou - just to be sure.

As for the guides, ask about 'K-lining', where they ream out the existing guides and fit inserts. They're cheaper than new guides, and I've never heard of one failing.

Like the wee grooves in the head! Somander Singh's marvellous combustion-enhancers?


Head has been skimmed already and im pretty sure its level.

Just bought some new guides will replace them with bronze just ordered from moss.

Yeah the mr singhs invention, havent noticed any improvement, although if you look at where the explosion is happening on my head i would preffer a diagonal cut too see what heppens.

Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 8:34pm; Reply: 110
Quoted from MissSpentYouth
Hi there, If you fitted new guides when you did the head and they were the correct size then I don't think this is your problem and it would be the inlet guides that cause problem in any case as they are under vacuum. Your comment about about oil bubbling out from the head gasket on the manifold side I think is the issue. If it was bubbling outwards then likely bubbling inwards also into the nearest combustion chamber hence the smoke. Check that your block is nice and flat with a good steel rule and feeler gauge, ditto the head. check the threads on your studs are in good shape. I am sure that you must have followed the correct sequence for torquing it down from the inside out. Did you re-torque after 500 miles ? Is your oil pressure OK when cold ie not to high if to high it may have stressed the gasket but unlikely. might have a defective oil pressure relief valve. Is your torque wrench OK ? likely you know what sort of torque to apply to the head does that match your wrench ? Has it overheated since you did the head enough to damage the gasket ? If you did have a significant blow between cylinders then that would have shown up on your compression test but cant see how that would have resulted in smoke. Hope this helps.


The torque rench is perfect, in fact i used two of them to double check.

The car hasnt done 1 mile since changing the gasket but was re-torqued after an hour of running.

Oil preasure is 60lbs at start up dropping just bellow 50 once warmed up.

Think its jst had a small blow in between one and two and also the valve guides issue, its all it can be the amount of oil inside the chambers and down the guides just isnt right, even the super worn head i took off didnt have oil going down the guides like this one.

Uneven block it could be but i doubt it as i have heard this is super rare.

I think its just down to the head not being sealed properly and a duff set of guides.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 8:48pm; Reply: 111
Quoted from davesideways
I just found an old bolt, slightly bigger than the hole, sized it so it was a friction fit loctited in place...Thats after measuring the depth, making it the right height and then linishing the top level with the block.




loctite holds it?
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 112
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 28, 2007, 9:36pm; Reply: 113
so just tap one in with a hammer gently yeah then maybe smooth it over with some putty and sand flat with sandpaper and a file.


How should i clean the valves and cylinders? wet and dry?

is there anything else i should do while the head is off?
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 114
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Posted by: lordleonusa, October 29, 2007, 3:13am; Reply: 115
Interesting about the wear in the steel valve guides, there are some really crap quality reproduction engine parts out there for our cars.

It is hard to get any helpful information from vendors about exactly where they source our parts from, if you ask them, you just get "it's proprietary information" from them.

Most of the supplier's couldn't give a mess about your problems.

My advice is to always purchase from a reputable parts supplier and don't buy uisng cheapest price as the only criterion.

Note that Phosphor Bronze/Silicon Bronze alloy guides usually have a greater clearance than steel as a matter of course, but tend to wear less quickly than steel.

If you do use a Bronze alloy guide, be sure to get a stepped guide, otherwise they can slip down inside the head.

Mess Motors/toilet tune guides are famous for that.

I recommend Chris Witor, or Canley Classics as good suppliers.

Léon







Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 29, 2007, 9:19am; Reply: 116
I ordered the guides last night to take advantage of moss's money off deal they will be thoroughly checked before going anywhere near the head, if the tolerences are too big they are going back.
I honestly didnt think i would have a problem with the steel guides i was told by a few sources the latest steel guides are excellent quality, they havent worn in the head they must have come with tolerances this size there is no way they could wear this quick.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 29, 2007, 9:12pm; Reply: 117
Right guides are ordered
New head gasket is ordered from canley, recessed payen.

cleaned the head up tonight, doesnt appear to be any damage nothing looks untoward.

With the guides cleared of oil now the amount of play is shocking, i have 3mm out of a couple of inlets and exhaust, only 1 is less than 1mm out of 8.

couple of cleaned up pics



Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 30, 2007, 11:39pm; Reply: 118
Excellent service from canleys (think they sent me wrong oil switch but prob my fault) but the new headgasket arrived 23hours after placing the order.

meanwhile moss are taking their time despite charging me 8 postage for 8 valve guides.
Posted by: Spitfire1500, October 31, 2007, 12:16am; Reply: 119
I have always wondered - are those 'faces' (on the valve head) meant to have that crack that resembles it's eyebrows?

Nope, I'm not under the influence of anything, I just felt 'faces' was a good description, for the two big looking eyes, the small 'o' shaped mouth and the crack across the head that form the eye brows (the crack seems to look wrong on an engine, like it's damage).

David
Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 31, 2007, 12:28am; Reply: 120
Quoted from Spitfire1500
I have always wondered - are those 'faces' (on the valve head) meant to have that crack that resembles it's eyebrows?

Nope, I'm not under the influence of anything, I just felt 'faces' was a good description, for the two big looking eyes, the small 'o' shaped mouth and the crack across the head that form the eye brows (the crack seems to look wrong on an engine, like it's damage).

David


Its a groove, its some new fangled idea i read up about a while back by a guy called somender singh its supposed to make the combustion more efficient by focusing the explosion. Im withholding judgement as to wether it works or not and there was a massive discussion in my porting thread about it that i dont wanna get into here, it seems to get completely mixed results by everyone that tries it though no negative results so i thought id give it a bash. If you want to find out more about it google the guys name. hes a helpfull chap and helped me design the groove in the head although we were speculating and got it wrong it should be on a diagonal.

Posted by: JoshB (Guest), October 31, 2007, 9:39am; Reply: 121
matt maybe tq your head to maybe 5lbs over recommended this time and not 100lb...
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 122
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Posted by: mattius (Guest), October 31, 2007, 5:34pm; Reply: 123
Right the guides arrived today seem much better quality than the last lot, head going to the machine shop tomorrow morning, get the new guides fitted and the seats re-cut, this time tripple angle. (new machine shop this time fell out with old one.)

Didnt realise they had to re-cut the seats every time new guides were installed though suppose it makes sense.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), November 1, 2007, 1:07pm; Reply: 124
Right the head is at the new machine shop for a week, top bloke, we are fitting valve stem oil seals to the new guides aswell, he reaconed he had a set that would fit and sure enough VW golf ones are near perfect. All that needs done is 1mm shaved off the outside of the top of the guide and they fit. And most importantly they fit inside the double valve springs! unlike ford pinto ones.
Posted by: Mac, November 1, 2007, 1:37pm; Reply: 125
Mat, when at this stage with my head, talked to "head" guy at machine shop as we were doin it and we agreed double springs was a humungous amount of pressure on cam et al for no good reason unless going silly revs, so went for single springs. Maybe on a later engine you need double springs though, I dunno.
Also considered oil seals but decided against as I want oil in-on the valve-guide, so we cut a 45 camfer into top of guide which acts as a blade and removes excess oil. Seems to work ok - revs to "Smiths" and no chuckin oil down 'em. Valves were tight side-to-side but sliding easy in-out of guides, I changed one valve because it had a click spot when flickin it through the guide with fingers, which I figured could turn into a hot spot.

Rocker shims - didn't need em even after takin a lot off block and head, depends on valve height in head - rocker pedestal height, methinks. Might need shorter pushrods if you run out of tappet adjustment.
Posted by: mattius (Guest), November 1, 2007, 6:28pm; Reply: 126
It seems every machine shop has a different oppinion, the last ones said i didnt need them, but this guy knows his stuff and builds all the local race cars engines, he also does all the flow and porting stuff. So im gonna trust him and see what he does.
Posted by: davesideways (Guest), April 24, 2017, 4:59pm; Reply: 127
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Posted by: GTEVO (Guest), November 1, 2007, 6:50pm; Reply: 128
Quoted from mattius


I am using old head studs as i am unable to find new ones which are strong enough all the new ones i found are crap.

.


errr can you tell me why you are using head studs?

I always threw them in the bin....cleaned out the threads properly in the block then put allen bolts in...

Fit and forget,- even torque all over lot's more than standard  ::)

Posted by: mattius (Guest), November 1, 2007, 7:00pm; Reply: 129
problem with using bolts is it makes it more difficult to line up the head and the gasket and i struggle enough with that.



was planning to replace the pushrods when i fit the new camshaft, but want to get it through its mot first.
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