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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
We went for a nice drive in the Rhön at the Weekend - highly recommended lovely scenery. A round trip of 200km and at the end the engine rumble was getting worse and worse. The old Trouble, you drive at 60 or 70 thereabouts and with the slightest bit of acceleration , the rumble starts. I drove this afternoon to our local mechanic - who listened and is convinced it is a bearing, either big end or the main. Now I did replace the bigend bearings last year with Standard new ones although the condition of the old ones as viewed hier in the Forum was considered to be ok. I also replaced the main bearing in the middle and at the rear end - again their condition was viewed to be ok. However the front main bearing I did not replace. It was mentioned that other Problems with sealing the plate which has to be removed for Access makes this a bit risky and anyway given the good condition of the other two was unlikely to be bad. I am also now unsure whether the thrust bearings I installed were put in the right way around. 😐 Thus I am about to get organised to do this bearing and check the thrust washers. I would appreciate some advice on what to look out for and perhaps any other thoughts in case this last bearing is not the noise culprit. Car is 1970 13/60 convertible.
Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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![]() posts: 1424 non member |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
reply 1 of 113
oh dear you havent had much luck have you! Honestly it is possible to get these cars to a state where they are reliable and repair free at least for a few thousand kms. Dont be worried about taking the sealing block out - if its put back with a bit of care and aligned ok theres no reason why it shouldnt seal well afterwards. Big ends are always described as a rattle when reving the engine stationary (although thats when quite bad) and mains a rumble. Your oil pressure will drop as bearings wear so thats another indicator. I forget now but I assume the crank was confirmed as standard size when you worked on it previously but were the journals checked for ovality? They can go out of round at high mileages or bearing failure and then of course new bearings wont last very long. Although there didnt seem to be much wear on the original bearings this is always difficult to judge by eye until the underlayer starts to appear and of course youve got to be lucky to catch them at this stage before they fail completely..... Does the end float of the crank feel any different from when you replaced the thrusts? Finally how about running the engine without the fan belt to discount the alternator/dynamo and water pump just in case? |
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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
reply 2 of 113
I have drained all the oil out now , so I will replace the front main anyway tomorrow. I will check the free Play for the thrust bearings too, before I take them out to check. One question, does the sealing block have some sort of gasket ?
Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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![]() posts: 1424 non member |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
reply 3 of 113
yes it has two little wood wedges (yes wood!) and two little gaskets although have a look at yours when you dismantle it because Im not sure these gaskets are always required. When removing the seal block hopefully you can get it out without damaging the gasket between the engine block and front plate then when replacing it ensure its flat with both the front face and the sump face before doing up its fixing screws. |
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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
reply 4 of 113
I wonder what sort of Wood it is? I see that the Wood and gaskets yu mention are avaialble from the normal suppliers. I will remove the seal block tomorrow and if necessary order the parts ( and some others ) at the time. Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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![]() posts: 2415 non member |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
reply 5 of 113
You make no mention of having measured the bearing diameters. This is necessary as you can't tell the condition by just looking. You'll need access to a micrometer to do this. Tony. If all else fails-Read the Instructions! 1998 Rover 600. Honda in disquise. |
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![]() posts: 1424 non member |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
reply 6 of 113
It shouldnt be difficult to find them but I didnt need the gaskets (none fitted and would have raised the sealing block to high) and found fitting the wood wedges too complicated so reused the originals. Remember to try to carefully separate it from the front plate gasket - use a feeler gauge if its stuck.... |
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![]() posts: 284 Wye Dean group joined on Fri 27th Apr 2012 |
posted Mon 26th Aug 2019
reply 7 of 113
Quoted from Antonnick- Just a very ordinary softwood IIRC, it's there to seal rather than take any load. |
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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 8 of 113
IIRC ????
Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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![]() posts: 9934 North London & Herts group joined on Wed 31st Oct 2007 |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 9 of 113
I have removed the front sealing blocks on a few engines to replace the front main bearing. Without removing the front plate. I reused the wood wedges, in fact the stayed on the sealing block. On reassembly just a smear of quality "instant gasket" to reseal where the old gasket fitted and the faces of the wood wedges, but do make sure the area is oil free (I use aerosol brake cleaner, ideal for degreasing) For instant gaskets, I have just used some Victor Reinz "Reinzosil" which is very good... Clive Senior |
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![]() posts: 1424 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 10 of 113
Did you find those little corner gaskets were required Clive? and IIRC = If I remember correctly |
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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 11 of 113
Thankyou for that Clive, it answers a question I was going to make. So I took off the sealing plate carefully this morning and it seems that previously someone had used liquid sealing compound alongsside the Wood wedges. I will try to put it back as suggested - the front gasket to the front plate is quite good. I removed first the front main bearing to have a look. If I had not had new bearings to Hand I would have re-used the old ones - they showed hardly any signs of wear or Scratching. Presumably therefore, the main bearing is not the cause of my knocking Sound. The crankcase movement though looked quite large when I pulled at it. I do not have a dial test indicator today but I thought I would try to measure the movement using my digital calipers, ( is it called that?) I read 1,2mm which is rather large. So, I removed main bearing no3 and checked the thrust washers to see if I had previously put them in wrongly. No, they were correctly positioned, smooth face against the main bearing. I have some new oversize thrust washers from last years work so I have temporarily at least installed a pair of +0,01 Inch just to see what the result is. My measurement now gives a free Play of 0,3mm which is in tolerance. However, before tightening everything up, I will check tomorrow properly with the dial test indicator. I am trying not to be too optimistic that the large amount of free Play was really the cause of the rattle.
Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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![]() posts: 2229 Spitfire & GT6 Model Consultant Cambridge group joined on Sun 11th Apr 1993 |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 12 of 113
I'd be surprised if undersized thrust washers resulted in rumbling as they only really do any work with the clutch pressed. I suppose it's possible, though.
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![]() posts: 1424 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 13 of 113
As was commented the journals could be out of round which is impossible to know without measuring however if they are the bearings normally show signs of damage with a few miles of use and as yours looked good I dont think this is the problem. I dont think the measurements you give on the thrust bearing add up so as you say need confirming with a dial gauge (end float is ideally 6 - 8 thou). What did the old thrust bearings look like? Just to confirm the face of the thrust with an oil slot in it goes against the crank. Will you be looking at the bigends?
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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 14 of 113
The bigends I replaced last year - at that time I could download Pictures and the Consensus of opinion was that they did not look bad at all. I replaced them anyway. The thrustwashers I replaced as well at that time using Standard ones. Only the one at the rear Looks a Little worn but hardly anything. In the Manual, it refers to the "thickness of thrust washers" with "clearances" from 0,15 to 0,35 mm. The Manual also notes the "crankshaft end float" to be 0,10 to 0,20 mm. Which should I aim for? Once the thrustwasher issue is settled and the rattle is still there then at least this has ruled out the bottom end so to speak. The next check will be the head gasket - I have ordered a compression tester - they are cheap enough. There is also the possibility of a worn Distributor where the Timing curve at Speed no longar matches and for that I have it in mind to send it to the "doctor" anyway. Postscript - wow - I can download Pictures!! Is this the new update of the Website? Wonderful! Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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![]() posts: 1424 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 15 of 113
according to Rimmers theres two types of thrusts (part numbers 104820 and BHM1366) with 5 and 10 thou available for early 13/60 and 5, 10 and 15 thou for late cars. I dont know what the difference is or if they are interchangeable. The end float should be as your manual says 4 - 8 thou not the 0.3mm (12 thou) that your initial measurement has shown. However if the dial gauge confirms this and no bigger thrust is available then I dont think its a major disaster to leave it like that.... |
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![]() posts: 1424 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 16 of 113
One thing, is the sound the same as last time? If I remember correctly all the work you did previously cured the noise? |
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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Tue 27th Aug 2019
reply 17 of 113
Last time it reduced the noise but did not eliminate it. ..and just to Show that I do not always work on the car ... ![]() Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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![]() posts: 2415 non member |
posted Wed 28th Aug 2019
reply 18 of 113
I still think that you need to get the crankshaft bearing journals accurately measured so you discount the bearing problems. Tony. If all else fails-Read the Instructions! 1998 Rover 600. Honda in disquise. |
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![]() posts: 2229 Spitfire & GT6 Model Consultant Cambridge group joined on Sun 11th Apr 1993 |
posted Wed 28th Aug 2019
reply 19 of 113
Quoted from glang- Early 13/60 (GE) engines are small bearing while the very late (GK) ones are large bearing, the same as the Mk3 to MkIV Spitfire engine change. The inner diameter of the thrust would have changed accordingly. Not interchangeable.
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![]() posts: 331 non member |
posted Wed 28th Aug 2019
reply 20 of 113
Mine is GE. So the 0,01 Inch are the largest available it seems. I do not think it is possible to measure for ovalness of the main bearing unless you remove the crank - which to do, you have to take the engine out of the car. I am not ready for that. The big end ovalness I measured last year already and all 4 were ok.
Gott hüte mich vorm Sturm und Wind, und Autos ,die aus England sind |
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