Club Triumph

The plan was - sadly - to sell Molly the Tolly after the RBRR. But after her brave run across Scotland the no.3 big end went on strike near Carlisle and we ended up on the back of a low loader for the rest of the night going home to Berkshire.

Still, at least I was able to come down to the A303/A34 junction yesterday afternoon and cheer the survivors on...

So what do I do now?

I have deliberately kept modifications to a minimum and everything I've done was designed to be removable with minimal permanent changes, so apart from a previous owner's dodgy two-tone paint scheme, the car is inherently very standard/original. And therefore I am reluctant to spoil that by putting in Sprint running gear, or an overdrive box, or any other changes needed to make it into a comfortable long-distance cruiser. 

But she has to go. Hopefully to make room for something closer to the "ideal" RBRR car, for 2020. Revenge will be mine, ultimately.

So, do I:

1. Sell as a rolling shell?

2. Get a S/H engine and put it back together, sell as a going car? Or

3. Rebuild the blown engine?

I cannot of course dictate to any future owner what they might do with the car, but as an original, unmodified 2-door Toledo it's a bit of a rare bird these days.

It would be worth more as a running car. If you just need to cut your losses then sell "as is". The 2-door Toledos are indeed quite rare. As a member of the Triumph Dolomite Club (TDC), I can advertise on their forum on your behalf (I'm 1 of the moderators on there).

Thanks, David - I'm a member of TDC as well, and posted a message in Ian (sprint95m)'s thread about the photos he took at J o'G. The Toledo is in fact in one of Ian's photos - it's the brown one with the big spotlights :-)

I do realise the car's worth more running than as a rolling shell - it's just about how much more, versus the cost of getting and putting a decent engine in (I'm not going to just put some POS in, that looks as if it's about to die itself). Thankfully I don't depend on it for daily transport so at least I'm not in a hurry to get it on the road again today. 

You could give it to me! My 4 door tolly shell is getting a bit frail. But I would be putting the running gear off mine into whatever I end up buying. 

(Don't worry, I am not too serious, but I am going to keep a weather eye out for a good solid car, not worried about paint finish or mechanicals, or indeed spec level...)

It may be worth having a look at the shells, a new set may just revive the engine)

Hi Clive!

"It may be worth having a look at the shells, a new set may just revive the engine)"

You mean, in addition to the new conrod and big end cap... When I said "went on strike" what I really meant was "left home and started living in the sump instead"

Sadly there was some scoring on the big end journal as well. I couldn't lash it together like that and sell it on, unless the buyer knew about it and was going to replace the engine anyway. And I suspect that what you would want to pay for it is less than I would want to receive ;-)

If I was you I would rebuild engine properly, pop in an OD box despite my reservations and keep it.

A Toledo is eminently suitable as an RBRR car.

What's most important to you? Your time? Or Money?

If your time is most important - move it on as it is, honestly and take the hit on the money side.

The balanced option might be to source a running second hand engine, swap and then sell.

The most time costly option, best financial option is probably to rebuild an engine and fit it.

Quoted from Ian Perry-

Hi Clive!

"It may be worth having a look at the shells, a new set may just revive the engine)"

You mean, in addition to the new conrod and big end cap... When I said "went on strike" what I really meant was "left home and started living in the sump instead"

Sadly there was some scoring on the big end journal as well. I couldn't lash it together like that and sell it on, unless the buyer knew about it and was going to replace the engine anyway. And I suspect that what you would want to pay for it is less than I would want to receive ;-)

Ah, maybe not then. But a recon crank/shells etc may be a cost effective and perfectly acceptable repair. 

ps my budget is usually about 50p.....

(Colin has a good point. Overdrive is a reversible modification and transforms the cars. Besides, who doesn't like an overdrive? But being realistic do weigh up what you want to spend against car value. And valuing a 2dr tolly is pretty hard I reckon)

Clive, Colin, Sam, thank you all. All very valid points.

I did consider an OD box before, but at the time it was competing with other priorities. I assume the conversion would be a 1500HL single-rail box and prop? Apart from those two, and presumably a different clutch plate and gearbox mount, I assume it is then just the wiring for the solenoid?

The crank journal does look pretty battered, but the only answer will come when I take it out and offer it to someone like Rob Walker to have a look, see if it will re-grind back.

At the same time, I guess it would be silly not to put in a large bearing camshaft with the Spit MkIII profile or something very like it, and fit the HS2s that are sitting on my shelf. I have a 1500HL manifold and a sound downpipe kicking about, too - I did look into a SS extractor manifold being made for the Dolomite Club, but the manufacturer had a bit of a nightmare with weld quality on mine and it went back after 3 goes.

So you see; it all mounts up... ;-)

The gearbox could be anything from a spitfire, so either 3 rail D type, or indeed single rail J type. Not sure which box you have, but the 3 rail OD is exactly the same length as a single rail non od box. The single rail OD box is an inch longer. And the TDC forum suggests (and from multiple reliable people) that the prop will compress enough to fit an OD. (obviously very doubtful if you have a 3 rail non-OD box at the moment) Wiring is pretty simple and totally reversible should anybody want to remove the OD (that would be daft though)

If you are selling the car, I would do the minimum, ie crank, to get it all sorted. If you intend to keep, a hefty skim on the head to get to 9.5 CR, along with the mk3 spit profile cam would be good. If you want the bit of extra power, and it will be a few horses, no more, go twin HS2's and the 1500 cast exhaust manifold. That should give you "about" 70-75bhp if carefully set up. A hefty improvement (cam and head will do most of that. I would be tempted to get a fresh spitfire head, the toledo 1300 head is sought after by the right people to pop on a spit 1500 to up the CR a bit)

The box in there is the 3-rail non OD. So either 3-rail or single-rail OD would mean a shorter prop, though it sounds as if a standard Dolomite 1300 prop (from memory they went to the single rail about the time they absorbed the Toledo into the Dolomite range) should work fine with a 3-rail OD.

Just looking at costs for repairing/reworking this engine. The head is a heavily skimmed* 1500 item with new unleaded inserts and new valve guides, and I am reluctant to mess any further with that. So the main costs would be a crank grind (if this one is salvageable) and shells, and it needs a new con rod and cap so presumably I am looking at a set. New oil pump while I'm about it. Gaskets and seals of course.

I've had the head off several times recently and had a look at the bores, which to my eyes looked smooth and clean. Pre RBRR I did a compression test to ensure the new HG was sealing (compared with the previous one - that's another story for over a pint by the fire) and that gave (cold) 140-145 psi, consistent across all 4. How does that sound?

* The head was skimmed 100/1000 which by my calculations would give a CR of about 9.2. I know that's well below your 9.5 figure but my memories of previous Toledo engines back in the 1980s suggested this was a reasonable figure for a very gently breathed-on engine.

Hmm, conrod is a problem. But you can get a single used one. That is what I did. From any of the large crank engines (including 6 cylinders)

A quick bore home if you remove the pistons (which you need to do) and as you are there, a set of rings is not a lot. That would make it a very good engine.

My 9.5 figure is not set in stone. I think mk3 spit is 9.25, so yours is about factory. 

Rough estimates, the engine parts/repairs would come to about £600 (including a Canley Classics MkIII profile large bearing camshaft).

I don't know if Quiller is still going in Woolwich, but their website suggests a recon 3-rail OD gearbox might come in at around £450 outright (assuming they wouldn't accept a non OD box as exchange), so allowing for getting a prop and a rear mounting, the OD conversion  might be another £600 or so. 

No.3 conrod looks like an EU banana at the moment :-o Are the conrods the same in all the OHV engines, then?

Honing the bores wouldn't hurt and as you say a set of rings is not a lot of money. Thankfully, bearing shells and rings seem to be widely available still.

Once it's all together... There is a classic/historic rolling road specialist round the corner (the car lives in Hungerford, and Stanton Motorsports is just up the road at Membury) and it would be worthwhile getting it set up properly. So I guess I'm looking more towards £1500 now... :-S

Quoted from Ian Perry-

No.3 conrod looks like an EU banana at the moment :-o Are the conrods the same in all the OHV engines, then?

No, but the differences relate to bearing size, not number of cylinders. So an early Mk1 2000 engine, or a 1600, has the same conrods as a small bearing Herald (all except late 13/60) or Spitfire up to Mk3. Late Mk1 2000 and all Mk2 or 2500 have bigger journals, same conrods as Mk4 Spitfire, Toledo, Dolomite and all 1500 engines. I think.

Brilliant, Rob, thank you. An advert might appear soon...

Quiller defunct. The owner sold the land for redevelopment, and he has moved to Lewes (near me) He sold all his gearboxes etc to Mr Papworth. I think a recon OD box outright is about £1K thesedays (maybe more? think somebody said £1500 or so from Mike Papworth for a kit, that may have been fitted)

For a gearbox wait for Tony Lindsey Dean needing to clear space.

i got a "new" GT6 box for under a grand.

only reused part was casings as far as I can tell.

He may well do Spitfire ones as well.

Update - closer inspection (parts still in engine) reveals the skirt of the piston is smashed too.

So that's another £100plus to add to the bill :-(

Quiller triumph are still up and running,,just moved to lewes,east sussex 01825-873551

Hm. In other news, Spitbitz has a couple of "good serviceable condition" used engines at £225 a pop, with 28 days warranty (enough to fit and test).

As I understand it the MkIV Spitfire engine is the same internal spec as the Toledo 1300, the former's 2x HS2 and a slightly better exhaust accounting for the difference in output.

At least the car would be back on the road then. And I could still rebuild the other one, if I decide to stay with the Toledo.

They also claim to have an overdrive gearbox, used condition, "believed serviceable" for £475. They won't warrant it, mind - apparently they received it loose rather than in a car, so have not been able to test it.