Club Triumph

hello from France. I'm returning to the Forum after about ten years. Back then I was competing in rallyes with a Hérald Coupé. Since that time I have been running a Ford Escort MK1 twin cam.
I'd like to come back into the Triumph fold and I'm thinking of a TR3 small mouth. I'll say straight away that I know nothing about these cars so the Forum seemed a good place to start.
I'd be looking to compete in rallyes though not as competitive as the ones I have been doing in the TwinCam.

So a few questions;
1. What would be required reading to learn the pros and cons of the TR2/3 (I already have The works Triumphs by Graham Robson)
2. How easy is it to get more performance out of the engine? And is the suspension / roadholding good in standard form.
3. I have seen a TR3 advertized here in France with a "Le Mans" head. What is that?
4. What are the weak points to look out for?

That's enough to get started !

Thanks in advance for your input

hello again.  50 views and no replies. Are all the TR2/3 owners on Easter holidays?

yes we were  

Never heard of a Le Mans head on a TR2/3 but i presume it will be one of the tuned heads. There are several states of tune of the 4 pot engine and to be honest it takes years to balance it all out or you have loads of money to throw at it.

To help you shorten the time I will not go through all the experiments I have done but give you a list of recommendation I would make to someone building a car from scratch or looking for a good, fast, drivable car.

I would also recommend you order a Moss Catalogue and read through it. It has lots of tips from Mr. Cox and Mr. Buckles who are the gods of TR. I would also suggest you take a look at the Kas Kastner web page http://www.kaskastner.com/ and try to find copies of his books. In my opinion some of the modifications are a little over the top but it is interesting to read what the racers were doing back in the day

So what do I recommend
- 87mm pistons, more is possible but not necessary
- Stage II cylinder head - Stage 3 if you want to spend more money
- Fast Road cam I think mine is 286 degrees but don't go much higher. I did once try a 311 and although it was fast on the track it was not much good on the road.
- use standard SW needles or experiment with the richer RH needles, the latter were better for me.
- extractor manifold and big bore exhaust lets the engine breath more easily and make a lovely tune.
- the long TR4 manifold is apparently better than the shorter TR3 one
- TR6 gearbox with strengthend layshaft (double bearings) with A-Type overdrive - you have synchromesh on 1st, otherwise no big change
- if it is a TR2 or TR3 I would change the front axle to TR4a-TR6 specifications i.e. 3 degree castor angle
- at the same time to save money later by exchanging the brake calipers and disks for TR6 spec. (discs and pads are cheaper but no better than originals)
- Mintex 1144 or 1155 depending on how you are driving. (not possible with original calipers)
- Set the camber to something between -1 and -1.5 by changing the top links
- Find some 5" to 6" rims and fit 185/65 15 tyres (or be safe and buy new rims)
- if the original steering is good stick with it otherwise use a kit to convert to rack and pinion (preferably weld on not bolt on)
- Strengthen the front axle bearings by either fitting larger ones or at least fit the spacer between the inner and outer to stop flex.
- 5/8" Front stabiliser works for me
- Go silly and put on a stabiliser on the back axle - good in the dry horrible in the wet
- do not bother with extra oil feeds to rockers cause more problems than they are worth.
- do not bother with roller rockers
- do not bother with Weber carbs the SU H6 are good for 160 to 180 HP which you will never reach on a drivable car.
- upgraded lever arm shocks at the back are okay, don't bother with all these conversions they are always a compromise and in my opinion are not strong enough.
- any decent shocks at the front will be fine.

I hope that is enough to be going on with.

AndyF

P.S. if you are interested in building a car from scratch let me know i have a TR2 basket case for sale.  

Thanks for all that, Andy. Plenty to think about. No I shan't be building from scratch. I want a car to be usable straightaway and then work on when not competing.
Are there any (or many) weak points to look for when visiting potential purchases?

if the car has had a hard life you might want to check the inner pins on the lower wishbone, I once managed to tear one off driving a little too hard.
The rear of the chassis can rust at the lowest point directly under the back axle especially if the holes have been blocked.
The chances are the front of the chassis side members will be flattened this is usually caused by previous owners running head on against pavements seen on many ex-USA cars. it is nothing to worry about and long as they are only flattened and not out of line left to right.

The bottom of the front wings between wheel and door can rust at the bottom especially if the inner wing plate has been missing. Dirt gathers and damp does the rest. An easy repair and found on most TRs. Otherwise just the normal used car checks.

AndyF

Thanks. All noted for when I start looking.

I don't know where you are in France but I have heard there are some TR3s for sale in The Netherlands. In my opinion very expensive but perhaps they are worth it.
http://www.classicargarage.com/de/oldtimer-verkauf?isorc=54. I have no connection to the seller whatsoever.

One other thing I forgot to mention is try to find one with an overdrive and the non-overdrive differential ratio (3.7:1). The cars when fitted with overdrive were delivered with a 4.1:1 ratio.  If the engine has been tuned it will pull it easily and gives you a better cruising speed on the motorways on the other hand if you want quick getaways the 4.1 axle is better, but I am sure you have worked that out already. The overdrive should work on the top 3 gears, 2nd, 3rd and 4th giving 7 forward gears.

AndyF

I'm in South West France near Cognac so a long way from Holland. Two I have seen advertized privately in France are at 35K €

That's a good point about the diffs. I always take my cars on a trailer to almost all events. Then if there is the slightest problem, and a small problem can immobilise the car, then it's ,hop!, on to the trailer and home. That being the case, I'd go for the better acceleration rather than motorway cruising. Occasionally you can't avoid it, such as the Rali de Portugal Historico, where there are long link sections which are sometimes on the motorways.

It's really kind of you to post, Andy, otherwise there would be no replies! Where are all the other TR2/3 owners ?
I'm interested in all aspects of ownership, not just competition. I may well buy a standard car and keep it very much that way. We'll see.

the people on this forum are a great bunch and you can have a lot of fun with them. Unfortunately they have strange ideas about what makes a good car. Many of them believe that the Spitfire, Dolomite or 2000/2500 saloons derivatives are the best and then we have those that cannot be helped who not only own but also drive the TR7 model.

I class my time here as care for the community and hope one day I can help them all.

  

AndyF

Quoted from AndyF

the people on this forum are a great bunch and you can have a lot of fun with them. Unfortunately they have strange ideas about what makes a good car. Many of them believe that the Spitfire, Dolomite or 2000/2500 saloons derivatives are the best and then we have those that cannot be helped who not only own but also drive the TR7 model.

(I class my time here as care for the community and hope one day I can help them all.)Will find a good care home for you regards michael

  

AndyF

Quoted from AndyF

the people on this forum are a great bunch and you can have a lot of fun with them. Unfortunately they have strange ideas about what makes a good car. Many of them believe that the Spitfire, Dolomite or 2000/2500 saloons derivatives are the best and then we have those that cannot be helped who not only own but also drive the TR7 model.

I class my time here as care for the community and hope one day I can help them all.

  

AndyF

I know chuff all about racing but after owning and selling a fair few TR's over the years I have recently bought a 1955 TR3. I would say especially with early TR's ( as a road car ) I would go with originality every time.  If you ever come to sell it you will have a much larger pool of potential buyers. These cars are 60+ years old so people fitted what was available at the time with many interchangeable parts. Many tr2/3's are out there with 3a front aprons, doors, rear valences bonnets and boots, tr4 engines etc. I was after an original car, as most of the uk cars have been restored I had to bring my old 2 owner jalopy back home from the USA. After a few hundred miles of smiles I am loving drum brakes all round, skinny tyres,heavy steering, clutch. Happy hunting

I suspect that is exactly what I shall end up with and perhaps do a few "in period" mods. I may have given the impression that I wanted  an all singing all dancing TR3 but I really wanted to know what can be done and what to look out for. I don't think a purchase is likely for a few months yet but I want to get the research in first.
Got a rally coming up this weekend around Limoges. I have a new Navigator flying from Belgium for the weekend; hope we get on !! He sounded OK on the phone.

Andy, what are your thoughts on this car ?
http://www.sherwoodrestoration.....oy-bodied-rally-car/

It would be ready to go!  How come it's an alloy bodied car ? presumably that has been altered at some point ?

Looks good!

What a beautiful car. Very nicely presented.

Quoted from curtis

Andy, what are your thoughts on this car ?
http://www.sherwoodrestoration.....oy-bodied-rally-car/

It would be ready to go!  How come it's an alloy bodied car ? presumably that has been altered at some point ?

North Devon Panels do complete aluminium bodies.

http://ndmetal.co.uk/triumphtr233a/

everyday is a school day.
I knew they did panels I did not realise they also did complete body tubs.

AndyF

What is the story with that GR gearbox with prologic overdrive?

CR is, I think, a reference to the TR6 all synchro box. The TR2 and TR3 'boxes only had synchro in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
The prologic overdrive is, I believe, referring to something TR Revington developed which was a push button overdrive. You push the button to put overdrive in and push it again to take it out. It also automatically dropped out of overdrive when you changed gears. So if you were changing through from 3rd overdrive it would automatically drop into 4th and you would have to activate the overdrive button again to get 4th overdrive. Not sure if it is needed on the road but perhaps an advantage on a rally or track.

AndyF