Club Triumph

Hi folks!

Just went for a run in my Mark 1 Vitesse after having last been fired up over a year ago. Engine seemed to be running well until I lifted the hood on return from a 10min joy ride and noticed coolant over the inside of the bonnet and engine.  

Wondering if someone can point me in the right direction to diagnose the problem? Initial detective work thus far:

- Overflow bottle cold, has less than quarter fluid inside.
- Checked radiator cap, appears to be ok - rubber not perished, mild surface rust
- Radiator has fluid, antifreeze looks ok in appearance
- Engine Oil looks black (although with a slight smell of petrol)
- Further concern -- noticed oily appearance to coolant in overflow bottle when cold, with black metallic looking grime floating around bottom of bottle (attached photo of the substance on my finger)

Took the car for another drive from a cold start and repeatedly checked under the hood to determine where the fluid may be escaping. Temperature gauge remains in the middle, will creep up slightly after idle for some time once hot. Noticed once the engine is hot and pushed a little, coolant spray appeared inside the bonnet potentially coming from what seems to be below the thermostat housing (perhaps the section beneath mounting the component to the engine block) -- including visible spray on the inside left of the radiator. Once driven further the overflow bottle slowly increases in coolant, becoming fill then flows through the overflow tube itself and I believe escape in a secondary place around where the tube meets the radiator being pressurised with no place to go.

Any ideas?

Thank you in advance.

I once had this, and it was the hose between the radiator and the expansion bottle. The pipe had cracked, so when under pressure and water came down the tube it dripped onto the fan. Obviously the fan made water go everywhere and the appearance was that it was a lot of water.

I take it your car has the later radiator, not the one with the separate header-tank over the inlet manifold?

@Neil Swift

Think the clear PVC looking tube connecting the bottle and the radiator is ok, however this has been wired on rather than clipped, maybe something?

@Jonny-Jimbo

Believe a later radiator, 1968, please find attached a couple of photos.

Thank you

Overflow bottle and radiator.

@Neil Swift

Thinking about the tube connecting the overflow bottle, not sure if it's the primary leak as there was spray on the inside of radiator/bonnet before the overflow bottle and tube become fill.

Wondered if this gasket could be the cause...

Hi Jason, heres a few points:
First the overflow bottle should always have enough coolant in it when cold to cover the end of the tube going into it (1/3 to 1/2 full) then this level will rise as the system heats up.
The overflow pipe should always be full of coolant so that the system draws back coolant as it cools down not air. This is why the end of the overflow pipe has to be immersed in coolant in the bottle and must be well sealed to the radiator.
Our coolant pumps unfortunately dont have modern graphite seals so when left for long periods the seal faces can stick. Then when you start the engine the faces tear apart which damages them and they then to leak. Sometimes this leak is only under pressure and the rotating pulley throws the leaking coolant all over the place.
You can pressure test the coolant system with a foot pump that has a pressure gauge attached. With the engine cold all you do is make up a connection from the pump to the overflow pipe and with the system still full of water pump air in. However dont take the pressure much higher than 1bar/15psi as the radiator cap wont lift to protect the system. When its pressurised you should be able to see any leaks which will be water rather than the steam produced under normal conditions.    

Hi glang,

Thank you for your pointers! Interesting, to confirm the overflow tube should always have coolant present to function correctly? Currently on cold start the overflow bottle is very low (only say 2-3cm) with no coolant in the overflow tube. Do you think with the overflow bottle low/none in tube that I'm getting air trapped within the system?

Also, any idea what the sediment in the overflow bottle could be/caused by? Read somewhere this could be from old or mixed antifreeze?

Best place to start, clean overflow bottle and try pressure test.

Thank you

a dust of talc powder around the thermo hsg will give away the tell tale leak it will show a track from the source.

the tube will only stay filled if the connections are air tight and the seal on top of the rad cap is making good contact, any small leak here will let the tube level drop
its a crude set up dont expect rocket science ,  in general any big changes in expelling coolant or sucking it back is as good as a bit of tube a bottle and wing and a prayer inside the rad cap

it works but dont expect too much from it.

that debris could be just  years of never being flushed out

Hi Pete,

Nice idea with the talc, will try this idea first. Are there any methods to improve the likelihood of the radiator cap making good contact? Perhaps a very light sand of radiator seal area? Should I also be testing the radiator cap itself?

Once the leak is found is there a best practise for flushing the cooling system including the radiator? Sorry and also any advice on replacing the antifreeze to avoid airlocks? Someone mentioned to be careful what type of antifreeze is used (think "long life" wasn't good for older cars) otherwise the antifreeze can 'seek' holes in the radiator and find new leaks...

Lastly, new rubber hose quality any good? Found recently purchased rubber items have perished quickly from the car simply sitting in storage with no exposure to the sun or use.

Thank you all!

Quoted from Jason C

Hi glang,

Thank you for your pointers! Interesting, to confirm the overflow tube should always have coolant present to function correctly? Currently on cold start the overflow bottle is very low (only say 2-3cm) with no coolant in the overflow tube. Do you think with the overflow bottle low/none in tube that I'm getting air trapped within the system?

Also, any idea what the sediment in the overflow bottle could be/caused by? Read somewhere this could be from old or mixed antifreeze?

Best place to start, clean overflow bottle and try pressure test.

Thank you

Do you have a rubber seal/washer between the top of the cap and radiator top? Without this you will have no vacuum to fill overflow bottle.
Tony.

Quoted from glang

Our coolant pumps unfortunately dont have modern graphite seals so when left for long periods the seal faces can stick. Then when you start the engine the faces tear apart which damages them and they then to leak. Sometimes this leak is only under pressure and the rotating pulley throws the leaking coolant all over the place.

Jason, I noticed from your pics that you havent got air cleaner hoses fitted on your car. They help to draw cooler air in especially during slow driving. I used plastic fish pond hose and a hair drier to get them to fit then made up a small bracket to hold them in their original position on the side of the radiator...

Thanks guys!

Will try and carry out a coolant pressure test. Shame the tools look expensive for this. I'll try and connect compressor with a tyre inflator that I have (has a pressure gauge) and be careful not to push over 15psi.

@Nang — yes has rubber seals on radiator cap.

Will keep you updated.

Quoted from glang

Jason, I noticed from your pics that you havent got air cleaner hoses fitted on your car. They help to draw cooler air in especially during slow driving. I used plastic fish pond hose and a hair drier to get them to fit then made up a small bracket to hold them in their original position on the side of the radiator...

yes came as standard but I believe they were made of a sort of paper material which rapidly fell apart so very few original ones remain. My bracket was missing as well so I bent a small thin piece of steel to shape, painted it and fixed it to the right hand valance top stud. I cant say there has been a drastic improvement but it must help to get cooler air especially on hot days.
With the pressure test it shouldnt be expensive as you already have a compressor. Remember that after the test, if there are no leaks, the system will still be pressurised until you undo the rad cap....

Quoted from glang

yes came as standard but I believe they were made of a sort of paper material which rapidly fell apart so very few original ones remain. My bracket was missing as well so I bent a small thin piece of steel to shape, painted it and fixed it to the right hand valance top stud. I cant say there has been a drastic improvement but it must help to get cooler air especially on hot days.
With the pressure test it shouldnt be expensive as you already have a compressor. Remember that after the test, if there are no leaks, the system will still be pressurised until you undo the rad cap....

Yes its not dangerous as no steam will be produced because the rads cold.
That pipe does look good certainly better than the cheaper corrugated fish pond pipe Ive used However dont think I need the jackets as I control my under bonnet temperature with the monster rad fan Ive managed to squeeze in. You can see it in the photo and its so powerful that it not only cools the radiator but also blows air through the entire engine bay!

Hi there,

An update! Tried a DIY coolant system pressure test with the compressor and tyre inflator and couldn't find the source of the leak. Decided to take the Vitesse to the mechanic to see if they could uncover the problem. The mechanic tried a pressure test, everything held up well under pressure - also no luck. After running the car, he was able to determine the leak coming from the hole beneath the water pump housing. The mechanic (owned a 1600 Vitesse in a previous life) recommended reconditioning the water pump (unable to source a new part in NZ) from a local store specialising in "vintage" car part repairs of this nature. I'm thinking while we're at it to replace the thermostat and do a good flush of the system. Assuming it's a good course of action to recondition the water pump? Noticed Canley has a fancy lighter alloy engineered replacement.

Thank you GLang and Nick Jones and all for the help, spot on with the potential leak source!